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Subject: I want to like the game but I cannot rss

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Simon Lundström
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Let me start with a a presentation.

I am a fantasy game fan. I am an adventure game fan. And old Dungeon Quest lunatic, lover of Talisman and a sucker at games being about walking around the countryside facing adventures. I am (was) also a fairly hooked WoW player, getting up 2 charas to 60 before the expansion, raided a bit, albeit very very moderately, and had tired of the game when I reached 70.
When I heard there was a boardgame I was thrilled. I loved the idea of lots of bits, familiar characters and classes and I also liked the world itself. So it was a golden moment when I got the box and opened it and pored through the rulebook. I found the concept amazing. I was on.

In World of Warcraft the boardgame you play two teams, one consisting of 2 or 3 characters on the Alliance side (being humans, dwarves, elves and gnomes) and the other consisting of 2 or 3 characters on the Horde side (being orcs, trolls, undead and the bull-people tauren). One of the unique mechanisms of the game is that you take team turns, not individual turns. The whole team takes it turn in one sweep, all characters acting simultaneously, or at least after mutual accordance.

First of all, players choose a character to play, there is one for each class in the online game, and the game's beauty lies in these characters and their mechanisms and special abilities. They are really well formed. Not only has each character a special racial ability, each class also has a unique deck of cards with buyable spells, skills, abilities, and also a deck of "talents", free extra enhancements of which you get one (and only one) each time you level your character. (The pre-made characters are of a set race. There is only 1 character per class (or rather, two: one for each faction) so for instance, you can't choose to be an troll mage. The ony Horde mage there is is undead.) Each player takes a pre-made character and divides up into two teams.

The game board is shortly described, a map of a part of Azeroth, the world in Warcraft. (For those familiar with Azeroth, the game board consists of the northern part of the Eastern Kingdoms, basically from Southshore and north.) This map is divided into a twenty-some areas, all with a name. In some areas there is a city (some Alliance ones and some Horde cities), in some graveyards (where you resurrect if you die) and in some you have flightpoints from which you can take a short-cut over the game board to another area with a flightpoint.

The game is essentially timed: The goal is to defeat the boss (which is selected out of a choice of three) and do so before 30 turns have been done. If not, you have to resort to a final battle between the two teams, in order to decide the winner (although you could simply ignore this and continue until someone defeats the boss). The boss itself is a difficult story, and in order to be able to kill him as a group, you need to improve your characters, by both levelling up, buying new spells and skills, and finding new weapons and equipment. Each turn, each character in the acting team may take 2 actions, which includes moving (up to 2 areas), fighting, resting (regaining hit points and energy (mana)), training (buying new spells) or going to town (provided you're in an area with a town in it). Going to town is basically the same as training, combined with a moderate rest, and the ability to shop from the town shops.

The levelling is done by questing. Each team draws 5 quest cards for their side, and can resolve these quests in any order. Each time a quest is complete and the participant(s) had received the experience points, the gold and the reward item(s), a new quest card is drawn to replace the old. The team may decide the difficulty level for the quest, meaning they may choose from which quest deck to draw it. As the characters increase their level, the amount of different spells/skills they can buy for their class increase, they gain one extra character-enhancing talent of their choice and they get access to finer weapons and gear.

New weapons can be bought in cities, from the market deck. However, the market deck is very sparse in the beginning, new cards being added as the game proceeds, so the most standard way to get new gear is to complete the quests, who along with experience points also gives some random items, and sometimes even some designated specific weapon or armour, all very recognizable from the online game.

So, each turn, the team decides which quests to embark for, how to plan their journey in order to get stronger as quickly as possible, for example which quests are easy enough to let one character do them alone, and which should they team up for? When should they rest, what is the most time-effective way to get the quests done, etc etc. It's also possible to attack the other team's players, trying to kill of characters in order to slow them down.

Some turns, event cards are drawn, adding to the spice. These can be anything from auctions where a specific item is auctioned out and all players can bid for it, to special bosses that are placed on the game board waiting to be defeated, to certain global interference, for example some monsters are added, some monsters get stronger, players not able to move as they want etc etc.

Combat
When fights occur (and they do often), it's performed with a for board games quite advanced but interesting system. Each character participating in the fight rolls a number of red, green and blue d8 dice. Red dice represent the melee combat dice, green the defence, and blue the ranged attack. So naturally, the number of dice you roll depends on what equipment you have, and what skills and spells you've bought. Bows and damaging spells give blue dice, each armour piece you have give green dice, and most melee weapons give red dice. Some special equipment or skills gives a combination of different dice. Some skills cost mana (energy) in order to use, some cost energy to equip, but not for each use. You roll all dice at the same time, red, green and blue.

All monsters have three values: Threat, Attack and Life. The threat value is the number you must roll in order for each die to "hit". For example, for a monster with threat value 5, all dice that show 5 or higher count, and those less than 5 are "misses". Certain monsters also have a special ability that for example may say that something bad happens if you roll a 1 or 2 or something.

In each combat round, when all characters have rolled all their dice, you count the number of blue hits (ranged attack). If these are the same or more than the creatures health, you've won. Meaning, the things you shot from afar killed it. If not, the monster hits back doing as much damage as its Attack, lowered by the number of green AND red hits that you've rolled, meaning your armour (green dice) and melee weapons (red dice) sort of parried the attack. Let's say you rolled 1 blue hit, 2 green hits and 1 red hit. The monster had 3 health, so the blue hit didn't kill it. The monster hits back with it's Attack, let's say it's 5. You had 2 green hits and 1 red hit, so Attack 5 is reduced by three. The damage you recieve is thus 2.
Then the amount of your melee damage (red hits) are accounted for (red dice both protect and do damage, but they do damage after the monsters Attack), and also all your "slow damage", here called "attrition", which is mostly caused by certain spells that do their damage last of all. Let's continue the example above. Let's say you had a specific ability causing 1 attrition damage. You had rolled 1 blue hit, 2 green hits and 1 red hit. As your sinlgle blue hit didn't kill the monster, it had attacked, doing 2 damage to you (5 minus your 2 greens and 1 red). You had 1 red hit so you do one more damage, plus your special attrition damage. The monster had 3 health, so you manage to kill it. If not, you would have proceeded to another combat round.

Combat is thus complicated and takes some time at first, but after a while it goes smoothly and it's intriguing. In order to make it even more interesting, some items and spells have the ability to allow players to reroll a certain amount of dice of their choice, and some skills can cause dice of a certain colour to be abe to be turned into hits of another colour etcetera etcetera. The monsters also have special bilities, nullifing certain dice rolls or rerolls, making the fights more thrilling. It's very adaptable and mirrors the abilities in the online game wounderfully. Combined with the highly advanced levelling and spell/skill system, you can adapt your character to different tactics, having a lot of unstoppable attrition damage, or a high reroll value, or a massive amount of burst damage blue dice.

And thus the game proceeds, each team taking turns, moving over the board, dividing up, regrouping, killing monsters… cards added to the market deck, event cards drawn, special bosses appear, more quests, items, character level and so it goes on until one team feels ready or is forced to take on the evil boss.

………

Now, you've noticed I am avoiding the point – the title of this review. Well, I wanted to give a background and describe the game first. But I'll get to the point.

To make a long story short, I really want to like this game. I really do. I am still trying, and I can't say I fail completely, but there is a nagging feeling of something missing, something lacking. And I have not been able to pinpoint it until rather recently.

As I said, I am a fantasy game fan. An adventure game fan. What I am after in an adventure game is taking the role of a character and getting the sense of embarking on adventure, doing stuff. I like to improve the character with new weapons and skills, hopefully level him/her and reach my goal, deck him/her in treasures.

Now, the character and levelling system in World of Warcraft the board game is superb. Simply amazing. I won't say flawless because that's not the point of levelling systems, they're supposed to be interesting and variable. Here, WoW boardgame gets full score. Choosing between the skills, talents and items is a hard job and it's fun. You can play the same class five times and not get the same result twice. The feeling you get that you're customizing your character and molding him/her to what you fell is best is perfect. Nothing, no other board game I have played has come near World of Warcraft the board game in this aspect.

So… what's wrong, then? Well, as I said I had difficulty pinpointing it. There are several drawbacks.

First of all, the game is long. Too long. It's a boring way of long, too. It's the kind of "For Christ's sake, isn't this game finished already?" kind of long, probably mostly due to the effect of the game not delivering the sense of variation that I want. But it's also a drawback because you can't sort of just pull it up for a gaming evening, you have to start at noon. Each time I've played it it's taken about 6~8 hours to finish. I've heard groups getting it down to 4, and sure, it's possible if each team use the downtime to plan their next move and decide what skills to buy etc while the other team makes their move.

But long… no, that's not the problem. Long wouldn't be a problem if the game was delivering the fun.

The second drawback is the small interaction. Fighting the other side is time loss for you too. And you can't complete the other team's quests, you can't even see them!

But low interaction isn't really the problem either. I love Dungeon Quest, that has virtually zero player interaction.

One rather big drawback is actually the complexity of the game. That is not a problem in itself but it means that keeping track of what you have is about as much as you can take. You can keep track of your fellow teammates, but trying to keep track of what the other team does? Not a chance. As far as I'm concerned, they could roll 3 extra dice of each colour and I wouldn't notice. Your own chara is about as much as you can keep in your head. This makes downtime rather boring, when you can't follow the other team's moves.

One serious thing that someone here on BGG mentioned is the board ~ the map. It's much too zoomed out. Here you have the fantastic characters that you really feel for, but you move around on a Risk map? Like an no-name soldier? Sure, there are cities on some areas, but like… entering a tavern? Visiting the witch? Nope. Just a town. Train and rest, but you don't see it.

But the biggest drawbacks is simple once you think of it: All the quests are killing monsters.

Yep. Every single one. EVERY SINGLE ONE. And all quests are shown and known beforehand. You draw the quest cards, which invariably reads "kill these monsters". You place the monsters on the map. Go there, kill. Draw a new quest, which is… monsters to kill. Place them on the map. Each time you kill a monster, you draw a new quest card, which will spawn new monsters on another part of the board.

After some thinking, I realised this is what was wrong with the game. All you do is kill monsters. You have these fantastically well made characters, most amazing levelling system ever created for a board game, and what do you do with them? You move across the Risk map game board killing off monsters. When you've killed, you move on and kill more. Move, kill, move, kill, move, kill, occasionally rest, buy spells, move kill move kill buy spells move kill.

There is no, repeat NO going to a place and drawing a card to "see what happens". No hidden places to explore. No dungeons to enter. To taverns to drink your head off in. Shortly, there is no adventure. All there is is a map with monsters on it, and you're supposed to kill them. That's all.

World of Warcraft the boardgame fails miserably in being a story unfolding. The game system itself is amazing, but it lacks the most basic thing I want in an adventure game: the moment of surprise and anticipation when I draw a card to see what adventure this new room/city/cave/mountain will contain. Sure, in comparison to WoW board, Talisman is a poor, simple game of rolling a d6. But anything can happen. You enter taverns. You meet witches. You meet followers. Sometimes there are traps. You get teleported around the board, turned into a toad, blessed by an angel. In Dungeon quest, you meed monsters, find treasures, you search the rooms, fall down bottomless pits, find amulets that do weird things… Shortly, stuff happens. In WoW board, nothing happens. You move 2 areas and combat some monsters. The next turn, you move and combat more. That is everything there ever is to do. Where are the delivery quests? The escort quests? The collect whatever-quests? Why just combats?

The only thing lightening up this are the event cards, that add some spice, but sadly, it's just not enough. The most amazing thing the event cards can do is when they announce a war, and where you have to stand in 2 different areas when your turn ends in order to win the confrontation. Else than that, it's mostly spawn a boss or sell an item. Which you use to combat the next monster.

I really want to like World of Warcraft the board game. I am still trying to. It has the most wonderful character and levelling system I have ever seen. How I wish in my fondest dreams that there was a way to combine WoW board with some sort of "Go there, draw the card to see what happens"-system. If only it had been more like Runebound in this aspect. But it isn't. There is no denying that this game lacks the most basic ingredient for an adventure game: The sense of anticipation. So close and yet so far.
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Dan Conley
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GREAT review! I had virtually identical feelings after I played this thing and, like you, I found it difficult to articulate the problem aside from saying it's BORING!!! You did a REALLY nice job of pointing out the issues with this game. THANKS!
 
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The Mighty Greedo
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Christopher Taylor
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I happen to like WOWTBG, but I think your review is very well done and gives great examples of why you don't. And that's worth a thumb in my book!
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Justin Fitzgerald
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I've been trying to puzzle through why the game isn't much fun and I think you've hit it on the head. The downtime is atrocious. I'm intending to run it as a cooperative game with only one team which, in theory, should cut that time it takes to play it in half.

But it still seems like it will be boring and I think your explanation of "no real adventure" hits my feelings exactly.
 
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Jorge Arroyo
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I've been wanting to try this game out (with the coop variant) for a while. I guess the question is: Is the combat system interesting enough to support the whole game?

Also, do the expansions add something else to do besides the combat?

-Jorge
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Justin Fitzgerald
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maka wrote:
I've been wanting to try this game out (with the coop variant) for a while. I guess the question is: Is the combat system interesting enough to support the whole game?


The combat itself is pretty interesting. The biggest thing is you're balancing factors. For example, you may want to hit 3 quests in a row without resting. In order to do that, you have to minimize your health loss and mana use. So you have to pick the right skills and items to use.

It is really more of a pacing issue. When the game is played on an infinite timer, the combat is pretty simple because you simply rest between fights. Haven't read the posted co-op variant so can't really comment on it.

The 1st expansion (Shadows of War?) I am looking into because it lets you build the characters in different ways - new skills and new talents. It also turns the blue (wandering) monsters into quests on occassion.

The 2nd expansion (Outlands?) adds a new board and lets you level your characters up even further. Seems frivolous at best but if you really like that game, it might be of value.

I'll pick up the 1st expansion but the 2nd doesn't add anything to the base game, in my opinion.

 
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Ryan Powers
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KakarisMaelstrom wrote:


I'll pick up the 1st expansion but the 2nd doesn't add anything to the base game, in my opinion.



The first expansion is nice. The blue monster stuff I could take or leave, but lots of people seem to think they needed some sort of fix. The Destiny cards are sweet though. Not sure the expanded character options really matter all that much, I think with play one or two options will be settled on and the rest will just be unused no matter how many you have. But they certainly don't hurt.

As far as the second expansion, I tend to agree. Their are a few bits that potentially interest me (dungeons, monsters), but I'd have to pay for all the rest (like the second board that no way fits on my table) to get them.
 
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Dane Peacock
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Gosh, I should copy this review and paste it as my own comments on the game. I am in agreement with everything you covered:

Leveling system: I agree. Absolutely fantastic.

Combat: Intriguing and fun, but the downtime for the other team is shocking.

Questing: Redundant and not fun. There is no continuing narration. This is incredibly disappointing, and ruins the game for me.

Player interaction: Again, I am with you. This usually is not a problem for me, but in this case, where the game is almost void of any type of unfolding story, it is bad, especially when it's already difficult enough to follow the other team's actions.

There is almost a meta game for tricks to speed up the game, as if that has become the ultimate goal. Almost all of the tricks require players to give even less attention to the other team. Yuck.

WOW has two or three brilliant ideas, but it is mostly boring because it is buried in redundancy, downtime, and lack of overall narration.
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Bobb Beauchamp
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Well-written review, but I have to ask...what else were you expecting after reading through the rules and playing the WoW MMO to such high levels? Aside from some early tutorial style quests, and rare instances as you advance through the levels, the WoW MMO doesn't have many non-combat quests. While there are narratives to the MMO quests, they are still pretty much "go kill X or Y number of X monsters," sometimes strung together in parts. But generally, the adventure type quests don't provide much experience or grant any significant item reward.

After all, crafting is entirely missing from WoWTB, right? This is even a large part of the MMO, yet not represented in the boardgame at all.

Maybe there's a way to incorporate such adventure aspects into the game without impacting the balance. I don't really see how, though, as the game is based around risk and reward. Adventures of the kind described by the OP don't really represent any significant risk, aside from time. Given the abbreviated way the boardgame represents the WoW advancement...60 levels in the MMO compressed into 5 in the boardgame...it's hard to imagine that a non-combat quest could provide meaningful experience that reflects the appropriate level of risk associated with the combat quest.

Runebound manages this I think because in order to gain the reward of the adventure items, the player has to forgo one or more turns of attempting an encounter that provides experience. Maybe the same could be accomplished in WoW, but it seems that in WoW, leveling up is at least as important as advancing equipment. In Runebound, good equipment is in many cases better than leveling up.
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Really a great review. I agree that some "adventure" is lacking from the game itself but I've always had a good time playing it. I don't think our games have gone longer than the 4 hour mark though. And the co-op varient is a heck of a lot of fun, I highly recommend trying it. Thanks for the well thought out review.

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So basically you would like the game if it added some kind of unpredictable story and increased player interaction? Unfortunately if it improved in the areas you didn't like I fear the game would take even longer.

I think your review is well written and your thoughts are presented in a way not to offend people (like me) who enjoy the game.

I'm not sure I get the frustration about the game just being about killing monsters. In essence this is what the computer game was about. Sure there were a few other things but the majority of the game is spent going places and killing monsters. The exciting part about it was that a lot of it was unknown when you first did it.

Seeing how the board-game is based on the computer game, I thought they did a great job in that regard. When you first play the game it is all new and unfamiliar, and you can appreciate it more because you don't know what challenge a yellow or red quest will "spawn."

After you've played the game a few times you pretty much have a "system" going for what you want to do and how you want to do it. Just like in the computer game when you're raiding for your tier armor for the 30th time.

The 1st expansion adds a few new things to change up the game a little bit. Unexpected events, and more to the systems you already said you liked. I don't know enough about the 2nd expansion to say what it adds, other than I wonder what to do with it because my table was already full!

I enjoyed reading your review don't get me wrong, I just like to play devil's advocate every once in awhile.
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MrSkeletor wrote:
Great review.


I concur with Mr. Skeletor--what a great review.
 
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Tim K
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Well thought out review Simon. You did a great job of saying what you liked about the game and went into detail about what you didn't like. I do enjoy WOW the board game. The leveling system is truly amazing, there is no other adventure board game that compares to it other than the classic AD&D. That said FFG could certainly do things to improve on it. I think you have hit on some of those here.

1) Make the map more tactical and variable. A modular design I think would work well. Something with a taverns / roads, etc like Simon explains. It would give FF options to release expansions. In the computer game you spend plenty of time moving much more at the tactical level than the strategic level.

2) Keep the level system. Its incrediable. Enough said.

3) Do something to improve on team interactions. I'm not sure how you go about it, but some improvement would be nice. Basically one team goes and the other watches or both go together since there is so little interaction.

4) Add the sort of variable quests that Simon mentions. Again, a perfect chance for FFG to come out with expansion packs for it. Something simialr to RuneBound.

As someone mentioned, maybe FFG will address these issues in there new WOW adventure game. Come on FFG, please listen.

TK.

 
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Anders Pedersen
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warmachine519 wrote:
3) Do something to improve on team interactions. I'm not sure how you go about it, but some improvement would be nice. Basically one team goes and the other watches or both go together since there is so little interaction.


That's my main problem with the game. While one team tries to optimize their characters, the other team usually takes their turn. The result is that I never really get immersed in the story of the other team, as I only get glimpses between my own choices. I have often had a situation where I sit and wonder whether to buy one skill or the other, as my opponents suddenly roll the dice. I look up and ask "what's happening?" and someone says "oh, I just killed a Murlock" and I go "ah, OK" and look back at my cards again...
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Chris Cieslik
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Sky Knight X wrote:

WOW has two or three brilliant ideas, but it is mostly boring because it is buried in redundancy, downtime, and lack of overall narration.


Wait...do you mean the board game, or the computer game?
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Brian
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First off, great review.

The RPG/Adventure Board Game genre has me frustrated... the choices are plentiful but each one has their frustrations. Either there isn't enough character diversity for my tastes (Talisman, Dungeoneer), too much complication / length (Descent, WoW) or too many luck and not enough strategic or tactical decisions (Talisman, Runebound, Return of the Heroes).

I've realized the problem is centered around combat: It's either too simple (with no decision making) or too complicated. I haven't found a game that interesting combat that doesn't bog the game into (a) simple dice-fest or (b) a lengthly marathon session.

Anyone have any suggestions?
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Emivaldo Sousa
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The first expansion fix the game. Get it. The blue quests add value to the blue monsters, the new cards add options to the combat strategy, the new Destiny deck add more flavor and some tension. (It doesn't solve the problem of low interactivity and long sessions, although, as you have more oportunities to gain XP in a given turn, and more useful equipment it is possible to kill the boss quicker).
The second expansion is more of the same, so you have to be pretty sure that you like the game already, and you must also have friends with lots of free time and a gargantuan table.
The novel idea presented by the second expansion is the dungeons. Those would be neat to implement into the base game.
 
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Jorge Arroyo
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shadowTerp wrote:
First off, great review.

The RPG/Adventure Board Game genre has me frustrated... the choices are plentiful but each one has their frustrations. Either there isn't enough character diversity for my tastes (Talisman, Dungeoneer), too much complication / length (Descent, WoW) or too many luck and not enough strategic or tactical decisions (Talisman, Runebound, Return of the Heroes).

I've realized the problem is centered around combat: It's either too simple (with no decision making) or too complicated. I haven't found a game that interesting combat that doesn't bog the game into (a) simple dice-fest or (b) a lengthly marathon session.

Anyone have any suggestions?


I don't think I'll be recommending Magic Realm to you then

-Jorge
 
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Of most of the people who say they don't like the game, but don't know why, I invariably see that they expect something of the game, which the game does not try to be.

And in the reading of the posts of the people who agree with you, I see it.
In your review, I see it also.

You opened the box with the expectation of playing an adventure game, and in a sense, that is how you played the online game. When there was nothing left to 'discover', the game was over for you.

I find that WOW:TB is *not* an adventure game. It is a very competitive race between two teams to outdo each other in achieving a task. The task is to kill the boss monster in a certain time frame, or - failing that - to at least best the other in combat.

Everything else is a means to an end.

I would love to hear what you thought of the game, after changing that one simple factor - the expectation of what the game is offering.
By sitting down to the game and expecting an adventure, you are already setting it up for failure.

P.S. I just loved the notion that you thought WOW was too long, but love Talisman for its adventure. I've played a game of Talisman that took TWO DAYS!! Purely because most players kept adventuring, or failing to get to the crown of command.
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Dan Conley
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That's the fault of the Talisman PLAYERS, not the game. I've sat through some mindless, boring Talisman games, always played with folks who "don't WANT to win yet. I just want to see how strong I can be..."! yuk

My biggest beef with WoW is the downtime for the non-active side. At least with Talisman, the downtime is usually pretty brief.
 
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Matthew M
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generalpf wrote:
zinho73 wrote:
The first expansion fix the game. Get it.

Where have we heard this before?


It's lies. There's nothing broken with the game that needs fixing, and the reviewer's issues are not addressed at all by the contents of the Shadows of War expansion.

-MMM
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Simon Lundström
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Thanks for all the replies.

bluebehir wrote:
You opened the box with the expectation of playing an adventure game, and in a sense, that is how you played the online game. When there was nothing left to 'discover', the game was over for you.

Yes, I truly believe that is the problem. As OmegaDolphin pointed out, most quests is the online game are slay monster X, so as a simulation of the online game, WoW:TBG is pretty faithful. While playing the online game, I noticed that a large part of the WoW players couldn't care less about the flavour of the game, they barely read the quest descriptions, all they did was conclude that "Aha, I have to get/kill 10 of Y". For those players (or that kind of people) I guess the board game is perfect. However, the flavour was there, the quest descriptions and the small stories that unfolded for each quest series, they were there for those who wished. There was a narrative, if you dug enough to find it and (as is necessary in Talisman) used your own imagination to tie the pieces together and build up a story and a sense of your character. The board game is sadly devoid of that. It's geared purely at the experience of levelling a character for the sake of being more effective in combat - and though I admit that's probably how a majority of the people play the online game, it's not how I played it, as you so rightfully pointed out. (And although this is a pure guess, I can't shake the feeling that those people who buy a board game variant of World of Warcraft probably are of the more adventurous type…?)

My biggest issue with the game is that's it's so perfect in the other senses. Had there only been tiles on the map, to upturn when you travel there, some non-combat related happenings and meetings, and some variation in the quests, the game would have been near perfection as far as my adventure-game-hungry heart is concerned. I love Talisman, Runebound and Return of the Heroes as far as "ah, something happens". But the levelling has always let me down.

To Shadowterp: The combat system in Drakborgen Legenden (new version of the Swedish Dungeonquest) has in this aspect the best combat system I have seen. It's a four-way rock-paper-scissors with a twist. It's variable and tactical and very quick. And no dice. The limitations are that the combat is melee and that it only relies on 4 traits.

And yes, I am hopeful for WoW: The adventure game.
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Nice review. Personally I love this game on a 2 players session. It's a lot of work to assemble but I happen to love the warcraft universe and also I am a huge fan of Fantasy Flight Games. Me and my girlfriend really enjoy the time the game takes as your character grows and there are lots of spells, items, events, monsters... WOW, literally, WOW The 2 expansions the game has add so many things you can play it indefinitelly and I love that. Remember that this is based on an mmorpg and has the feeling of the game in every chip and bit.

On a 4 players session I have the problem that my friends are pretty slow on making decisions and each turn takes forever, but I do not mind the game being long, my only issue is for me to wait until the other players have made their mind.

Talisman have too many issues for my taste and my game group hates it or better to say is they fall asleep after the first 2 hours. With this game you want the adventure to continue and as truth as it is that all mmorpg are hack and slash it's good to work in cooperation with a party of heroes.
 
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Octavian wrote:
generalpf wrote:
zinho73 wrote:
The first expansion fix the game. Get it.

Where have we heard this before?


It's lies. There's nothing broken with the game that needs fixing, and the reviewer's issues are not addressed at all by the contents of the Shadows of War expansion.

-MMM

In my opinion, the blue creatures are kind of broken in the original game. Why can't you get XP from then? (they are usually harder to beat then their green counterparts). The Blue quests fix this.
And the Destiny deck tries to add a little bit more of flavour and adventure to the game - exactly the point of the review. It is just a small addition, though.
I like the original game, but Shadows of War makes it more interesting. I can't imagine play the game again without the expansion.

On a side note: the blue creatures are designed to be obstacles. It would be way more cool if they weren't creatures, but other kind of encounters: prisons, dungeons, inns, castles, etc. It would certainly add to the exploring aspect.
 
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