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Subject: Supporting fire question rss

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Andy Watkins
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Supporting fire seems to be very useful, but if I read it correctly it is not possible to advance in any way and engage in supporting fire.

Say i had 3 shermans and wanted to tackle a tiger it looks as though my best option would be to move late in the turn hopefully after the tiger has become fatigued. I then throw everything into make sure i get the initiative the next turn, fire the centre sherman and get supporting fire from the two flanking shermans which would give me an attack of 16 at normal range and a reasonable chance of destroying the tiger.

Is this right or am i missing something??

Pretty much the same for infantry except that as i understand it you could move 2 infantry units adjacent to an enemy squad with fire and move and actually fire individually at the target. Then if you moved a 3rd squad into position between the two you moved earlier with an assault move, that squad could assault and get half attack benefit from the other two squads even though they were fatigued.

Are these two examples correct or is there a better way of doing it?

Andy
 
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Stephen Ashworth
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Hi Andy

Yep as far as I can tell I think that you've hit the nail on the head the head there, but don't quote me on that.

Ste
 
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Andy Watkins
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I don't usually pick it up quite as quickly as that

Must be well written rules, they certainly seem good....
 
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Yiannis Avramandis
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andywatkins1963 wrote:
Say i had 3 shermans and wanted to tackle a tiger it looks as though my best option would be to move late in the turn hopefully after the tiger has become fatigued. I then throw everything into make sure i get the initiative the next turn, fire the centre sherman and get supporting fire from the two flanking shermans which would give me an attack of 16 at normal range and a reasonable chance of destroying the tiger.
Is this right or am i missing something??

I agree with you. This rule of supporting fire is the only one I found totally unrealistic in an extraordinary game. I imagine that a more correct approach to this would be the addition of "facing" rules and the restriction of each gun to fire individually like real life. But this would have made the game more complex reducing speed of play and maybe some of the fun it offers. That's authors answer and I accept it as a necessity.Otherwise Shermans would had a small chance to copy with a Tiger.




 
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Yiannis Avramandis
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andywatkins1963 wrote:
Pretty much the same for infantry except that as i understand it you could move 2 infantry units adjacent to an enemy squad with fire and move and actually fire individually at the target. Then if you moved a 3rd squad into position between the two you moved earlier with an assault move, that squad could assault and get half attack benefit from the other two squads even though they were fatigued.
Are these two examples correct or is there a better way of doing it?

It's quite simple to understand this "curious" form of assault. Imagine 3 units wanting to assault SIMULTANEOUSLY a hex. You can not move 3 units all in the same time but you can do it in 3 STEPS. The first unit approaches and fires, so does the second and the third leads the final assault with the others two because that was the intention of the attack in the first place. It's like a movie: 3 units attack and three different cameras cover the same event from 3 angles so you can get the best of the feeling.



 
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Andy Watkins
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Thanks Yiannis,

I am OK with all of this. In fact I rather like the simplified and abstract way that you can say the supporting fire from tanks is the equivalent of flanking fire against a tiger.

i.e. in reality the shermans would use their numbers to try and flank the tiger and get an easier shot. Now for simplisity TOI does not have facing, so by allowing extra tanks to add to the attack you are abstractedly saying, "they would help" rather than literally saying that they come together to make one really big tank

Andy

 
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Yiannis Avramandis
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andywatkins1963 wrote:
the supporting fire from tanks is the equivalent of flanking fire against a tiger.

You are absolutely right. But solving a problem a new one appears. In reality one Tiger or even one Panther {I am anxious to see this tank released} would destroy about 7 Shermans before knocked out just by sheer force. In the game if the Americans get the initiative they can destroy with a triple salvo the Tiger for sure. Even if the Germans get the initiative they can destroy 1 Sherman per Tiger. No problem for the Americans when they have a dozen of them.
So we have an historical situation with a lot of Shermans and a few Tigers, an acceptable abstract way to substitute flanking fire with an easy rule of combined fire and an unhistorical situation where a Tiger dies before he gets his 1:7 {sometimes more} share of kills.


 
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Mike zebrowski
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Your analysis is flawed.

The Tiger's armor will stop 3 hits on average and it take 4 hits in a single volley to destroy a vehicle, so it takes 7 hits on average to kill an undamaged Tiger.

To achive 7 hits in one volley: You need 5 Shermans within Range 6. Beyond Range 6, you need 10 Shermans.

You also make the extremely common mistake of assuming that the vehicles are lining up in a firing line. They are not, they are always moving around.

In order for the Shermans to get such a massive amount of dice, they can not move the round that they attack the Tiger. While the Shermans are trying to manuver to get a shot, the odds of them actually damaging the Tiger are slim. Meanwhile, the Tiger can use Move and Fire and easily cause light to heavy damage on the Shermans.
 
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Yiannis Avramandis
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Mike Zebrowski wrote:
You also make the extremely common mistake of assuming that the vehicles are lining up in a firing line. They are not, they are always moving around.I

I like this point of view and I will accept it as wise one.
 
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Yiannis Avramandis
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Mike Zebrowski wrote:
To achive 7 hits in one volley: You need 5 Shermans within Range 6. Beyond Range 6, you need 10 Shermans.

With so many Shermans the kill is almost sure. But 3 Shermans -in normal range- can often achieve the same result with a moderate luck. It happened a lot of times in our games.
Like Up Front this games are more balanced when only infantry units are involved. The tanks tend to decide the battle after a quick firefight. That does not mean that I don't like armor units. They are just a bit more unpredictable. That's also a good think.
 
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Mike zebrowski
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Emil 109 wrote:
Mike Zebrowski wrote:
To achive 7 hits in one volley: You need 5 Shermans within Range 6. Beyond Range 6, you need 10 Shermans.

With so many Shermans the kill is almost sure. But 3 Shermans -in normal range- can often achieve the same result with a moderate luck. It happened a lot of times in our games.


Are you sure that you are playing the rules correctly? 3 Shermans combining fire gives you 16 dice. That will give you an average of 5 hits. The Tiger will get an average armor roll of 3 saves. 5-3 = 2, which is lightly damaged.

Mike Z
 
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