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Subject: Need help with set-up rss

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Chester
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I'm still not clear on the "official" way to set-up the Regional Opinion Pool (not the right terminology, but you know what I mean.)

The rules mention drawing 6 cards. The FAQ mentions that there may be "spaces left blank" if there are duplicate/opposite cards dealing with the same issue.

There are 7 symbols, one for each issue, on the board in the designated area. Does this imply there are 7 "spaces" or is this referring to 6 spaces (from the setup), some of which may not be filled if multiple cards address the same issue.

THEN, suppose there are multiple cards at set-up with the same issue....what do you do with them? Do you discard the multiples, leaving perhaps 4 cards in the set-up pool? I've also read that you pile cards with the same issue on top of each other...but that all are available for use. What's the significance of even paying any attention to duplicate/opposites if they all stay in the pool and are all available for use? (I note that the rules make no issue out of that possibility...maybe meaning that this is not something to pay attention to at all.)

I believe it was the WBC rules that suggested you may only have ONE card representing each issue in the box. While that may make some intuitive sense, I've certainly not read anything remotely approximating that in the rules. That seems to imply that you "discard" duplicate/opposites....which I don't see supported in any official way. Or is only the top card available? You'd think that would be clearly spelled out if it were the case.

Perhaps the point being made in the FAQ is simply that, YES, there may be unrepresented issues after the set-up. That would be true by definition, since there will be only 6 cards vs 7 issues...even if all 6 cards are unique.

So....why put the symbols there in the first place (in the pool?) Are they simply decorative, or should I be organizing the cards by this method.

There's been plenty of discussion about how to replenish / add to / exchange cards in the pool. I think that's fairly clear now. But what's the deal with duplicate/opposites of the same issue as one already represented?

 
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Still puzzled by pool
We played a 5 player game interpreting the rules as follows:
Set up with 6 cards in swap pool...all available, and this included a couple duplicates.

We placed cards into the pool left-over from regions or that became duplicates as face-down issues were revealed. We DISCARDED national issues that were swapped out.

By the end of the game...we used the LAST possible card to substitute for a duplicate in one region. The swap pool was huge and included every possible issue, yea and nay. This seemed incorrect to me.

I also realized that if we'd needed one more card to replace the duplicate opinions in the regions....I wasn't sure what to do. Probably we'd shuffle the pool, draw until we had a card that worked...and then put all the balance back into the pool. But that's clunky.

In the end, I felt like we must be doing something wrong with the swap pool. I'm very interested in the WBC "variant" where only one card from each of the 7 issues may be available in the swap pool. How exactly is that implemented?

Are there ANY other ways for cards to end up being "discarded" other than to be replaced in the national pool?
 
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Mike Mayer
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Re:Still puzzled by pool
cornjob (#50542),

The WBC variant is here:

http://www.boardgamers.org/yearbook/dimpge.htm

And a huge discussion about the swap pool is here:

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/34565

-Mike mayer
 
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Re:Still puzzled by pool
Mike Mayer (#50559),

Thanks Mike. I'd read that discussion and came away still not really sure what the "official" way to do it is. What's the etiology of the WBC variant, I wonder....
 
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Jonathan Arnold
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Re:Need help with set-up
cornjob wrote:
I'm still not clear on the "official" way to set-up the Regional Opinion Pool (not the right terminology, but you know what I mean.)

The rules mention drawing 6 cards. The FAQ mentions that there may be "spaces left blank" if there are duplicate/opposite cards dealing with the same issue.

There are 7 symbols, one for each issue, on the board in the designated area. Does this imply there are 7 "spaces" or is this referring to 6 spaces (from the setup), some of which may not be filled if multiple cards address the same issue.


The point is that all of the spaces in the Exchange Pool, one for each kind of opinion, may not have an opinion in them. Like you say, they certainly will not. You just place the 6 cards on the space for the opinion they represent. The symbols are just a way to keep the Exchange Pool organized.


THEN, suppose there are multiple cards at set-up with the same issue....what do you do with them? Do you discard the multiples, leaving perhaps 4 cards in the set-up pool? I've also read that you pile cards with the same issue on top of each other...but that all are available for use. What's the significance of even paying any attention to duplicate/opposites if they all stay in the pool and are all available for use? (I note that the rules make no issue out of that possibility...maybe meaning that this is not something to pay attention to at all.)


That's right, there's no mention because there's nothing special. They just go into the exchange pool as they are supposed to, without any regard to any that are there.


I believe it was the WBC rules that suggested you may only have ONE card representing each issue in the box. While that may make some intuitive sense, I've certainly not read anything remotely approximating that in the rules. That seems to imply that you "discard" duplicate/opposites....which I don't see supported in any official way. Or is only the top card available? You'd think that would be clearly spelled out if it were the case.


I asked Tom what the genesis for the WBC rule (which is that there can be only one of each type of card, both pro and con - so each opinion can have 2 cards), but I never heard back about where it came from. I assume you just discard any matching opinion cards.


Perhaps the point being made in the FAQ is simply that, YES, there may be unrepresented issues after the set-up. That would be true by definition, since there will be only 6 cards vs 7 issues...even if all 6 cards are unique.

So....why put the symbols there in the first place (in the pool?) Are they simply decorative, or should I be organizing the cards by this method.


Right, just use the symbols to keep the Exchange pool organized.


There's been plenty of discussion about how to replenish / add to / exchange cards in the pool. I think that's fairly clear now. But what's the deal with duplicate/opposites of the same issue as one already represented?


Nothing at all. Just put them in there.
 
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Jonathan Arnold
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Re:Still puzzled by pool
cornjob wrote:
We played a 5 player game interpreting the rules as follows:
Set up with 6 cards in swap pool...all available, and this included a couple duplicates.

We placed cards into the pool left-over from regions or that became duplicates as face-down issues were revealed. We DISCARDED national issues that were swapped out.


Exactly correct, both by the rules and by the designer's answer to the direct question.


By the end of the game...we used the LAST possible card to substitute for a duplicate in one region. The swap pool was huge and included every possible issue, yea and nay. This seemed incorrect to me.

I also realized that if we'd needed one more card to replace the duplicate opinions in the regions....I wasn't sure what to do. Probably we'd shuffle the pool, draw until we had a card that worked...and then put all the balance back into the pool. But that's clunky.


We too have come close but in 5 games we've never gone over. So I guess it could theoretically happen but it just doesn't. And yes, it can get huge. And some complain that it doesn't feel "Euro" enough. Personally, I feel that it gives you a chance to think about what you want to do and what works best, working in a little strategy without artificially hamstringing you.


In the end, I felt like we must be doing something wrong with the swap pool. I'm very interested in the WBC "variant" where only one card from each of the 7 issues may be available in the swap pool. How exactly is that implemented?

Are there ANY other ways for cards to end up being "discarded" other than to be replaced in the national pool?


Not that I know of. I've been working out a Die Macher program and I'm not sure I need to keep track of discarded regional opinions. There's even a space for them on the board but I'm not sure there is any way for them to end up there - officially speaking of course.
 
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Re:Still puzzled by pool
jdarnold (#50722),
I think its significant to note that during the initial set-up if there are duplicate issues as cards are revealed...the cards are NOT discarded but are placed on the bottom of the draw pile. After each of the 4 regions are set up the pile is shuffled.

Thanks for the replies. If anyone can shed light on where the WBC variant came from I'd really like to know.
 
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