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Subject: New stat for GeekQuestions to mitigate the silliness rss

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Randy Cox
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Scott,

Here's a serious proposal for the GeekQuestions stat page. Since a handful of people like that page so much that they make up stupid questions and nonsensical answers just to rise, I think it's time to upset the apple cart a bit. The effect would be to pare down GQ radically, leaving only the "good stuff" behind.

Instead of the two columns you have today (which takes a bit of time to load), how bout reducing the stat page to a single rating called GQ score, as follows...

1 point for each Geek Question asked
-1 point for each question asked with more than 5% "never answer"
-1 point for each question asked with fewer than 5% "never answer" BUT with fewer than 5 responses
0.1 point for each Geek Question answered
+1 for each thumbed question and response

...and here are the two biggies...

For each question asked, add up all the answerers' total answered questions and calculate an average. If that average is > the number of questions answered by the #20 person on the Questions Answered list, that's minus 1 point. This marks questions that are only answered by the die-hards who are trying to rise on the stats page as non-contributing questions.

For each Question Answered, add up all answerers' total answered questions. If a particular person who answered accounts for more than 20% of that total, they get minus one point for the score. This keeps the stat-seekers from answering a dumb question no one else cares about.

So, let's say MonkeyPenguinCDBrentPrussian has been very active. They may be near the top of both current lists because of their inane activity:

2,000 questions asked (+2000)
350 with 5% "never answer" (-350)
25 with <5% "never answer" but fewer than 5 responses (new and untested questions penalty) (-25)
20,000 questions answered (+2000)
36 thumbs (+36)

Now for the "insider trading" penalties...

of the 2000 questions asked, 1250 have been answered only by the Guild of the Misguided Question Answerers (you know who you are). That means that the average answerer to those questions has answered 4,538 or more questions (at the time of this posting) (-1250)

of the 20000 questions answered, count up the questions where other answerers' total questions answered were fewer than 80000 (thus meaning this uber answerer accounts for 20%+ of the activity). Let's say that's 1500 question (-1500)

So, this person sitting at or near the top of both existing metrics would score
Questions: 2000
Waste Question penalty: -350 (running total = 1650)
New and Untested penalty: -25 (= 1625)
Questions Answered * 0.1: 2000 (= 3625)
Thumbs: 36 (= 3661)
Question Insider Trading penalty: -1250 (= 2411)
Answer Insider Trading penalty: -1500 (= 911)

Of course, the calculations might need tweaking and they could only be calculated each evening and cached. But I think it would be a great way to "secretly" calculate a Usefulness Index to Geek Questions that would highlight those who ask and answer meaningful questions and refrain from the silliness. The others wouldn't appear and would soon start deleting the stupid answers (like "42" on every question so that they rise to the top) and the stupid questions. Then their scores would rise and we'd have weeded out the crap.

In fact, as a reward for deleting geekquestions and/or geek answers, I think the user should be rewarded with GG each time they delete old questions/answers (no fair adding crap and deleting it to build up GG coffers). I'd award 0.1 GG for deleting a "non-offending" question or answer and 0.5 GG for getting rid of the ones that fall under the "Waste Question and Insider Trading" penalties above. Maybe even give them a screen showing only the offending questions and answers so that they can just go down deleting them quickly and painlessly.

The end result would be a cleaner and less off-putting (to "otsiders") GeekQuestions, and more thought going into questions and answers. Beware that someone would want to "game the system," so that's where you start charging for a question (2 GG?). Once a question gets out of the "Untested" category and is not in the "Waste or Insider" penalty boxes for a month or so, you get a 1GG refund.

What do you say?

Note: If you gave me a file of the data, I'd run the numbers to see how it would shakeout in different scenarios, with an eye towards rewarding users who make good questions and answers.
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Koldfoot wrote:
Don't you dare come sniffing around, and finding fixes for the Word Association Game. We're happy just the way we are, thank you.



I know I am only a new user, but personally I'm getting bored of answering half the questions with a snide remark about how the question is just a badly worded piece of crap meant to get askers ratings up. shake The two people who are the worst at this know who they are.
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I've ansered a few questions here and there, but end up skipping many of them. There's actually a rankning for asking questions? I never knew! And I never dreamed anyone would care. Still so much I haven't seen at this site yet!
 
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I stopped answering questions long ago once it was clear that they weren't questions of any interest anymore, and just duelling idiots.
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I think the questions are fun and as I said in Randy's other thread I don't know how you would fairly define "good questions." I like the silliness. If you weed it out I'd probably stop answering geek questions.

What if you had a couple of checkboxes and you had to categorize your questions. As "serious" or "fun" In answering you could choose, "serious" questions only, fun questions only or both? Would that help?

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Evonine wrote:
Koldfoot wrote:
Don't you dare come sniffing around, and finding fixes for the Word Association Game. We're happy just the way we are, thank you.



I know I am only a new user, but personally I'm getting bored of answering half the questions with a snide remark about how the question is just a badly worded piece of crap meant to get askers ratings up. shake The two people who are the worst at this know who they are.


I think a majority of them are actually for fun and the rankings are a side effect.
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Randy Cox wrote:
Here's a serious proposal for the GeekQuestions stat page. Since a handful of people like that page so much that they make up stupid questions and nonsensical answers just to rise, I think it's time to upset the apple cart a bit. The effect would be to pare down GQ radically, leaving only the "good stuff" behind.

I don't understand why a few users having fun with a neglected corner of BGG bothers you so much when you feel it is perfectly ok for a few users to have fun with something as integral to BGG as the ratings system.

Care to explain how this stance of yours is not hypocritical?
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BeyondMonopoly wrote:
Randy Cox wrote:
Here's a serious proposal for the GeekQuestions stat page. Since a handful of people like that page so much that they make up stupid questions and nonsensical answers just to rise, I think it's time to upset the apple cart a bit. The effect would be to pare down GQ radically, leaving only the "good stuff" behind.

I don't understand why a few users having fun with a neglected corner of BGG bothers you so much when you feel it is perfectly ok for a few users to have fun with something as integral to BGG as the ratings system.

Care to explain how this stance of yours is not hypocritical?
Sure.

Messing with one game's ratings lasted 24 hours and didn't affect anything. Turning GeekQuestions into the BGG Ghetto has been a multi-year effort that isn't getting any better.
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Randy Cox wrote:
Sure.

Messing with one game's ratings lasted 24 hours and didn't affect anything.

That's completely false, and you know it. I really expected better of you, Randy. Some of those ratings are still there, and some 10's it doesn't deserve. Who knows what the right rank for it would have been.

Quote:
Turning GeekQuestions into the BGG Ghetto has been a multi-year effort that isn't getting any better.

Take the whole GeekQuestions module away and BGG has lost nothing of value.
 
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BeyondMonopoly wrote:

Take the whole GeekQuestions module away and BGG has lost nothing of value.


GeekQuestions is the one feature on this site that completely baffles me. What is it for? No clue. I went to the BGG wiki to dig up some info about this module. The entry is blank though.
 
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GQ Score sounds like a fine pilot project.

I wouldn't care if the stats page were removed.

---

BeyondMonopoly wrote:
Take the whole GeekQuestions module away and BGG has lost nothing of value.

soblue


boris317 wrote:
GeekQuestions is the one feature on this site that completely baffles me. What is it for? No clue.

For fun! Like, games! Games are fun, too!

Mostly for fun, that is. There's also a secret contest with a $10,000 prize. To this day it is still unclaimed...
 
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BeyondMonopoly wrote:
Randy Cox wrote:
Sure.

Messing with one game's ratings lasted 24 hours and didn't affect anything.

That's completely false, and you know it. I really expected better of you, Randy. Some of those ratings are still there, and some 10's it doesn't deserve. Who knows what the right rank for it would have been.

Quote:
Turning GeekQuestions into the BGG Ghetto has been a multi-year effort that isn't getting any better.

Take the whole GeekQuestions module away and BGG has lost nothing of value.


Man, David, look the Agricola thing happened it got out of hand - any further discussion of that is appropriate for the complaint department not here. I am not trying to be curt but I really don't think you are ever going to agree with Randy's take on it nor mine. IMO pretty much everything has been said on that topic. Because we made a poor judgment in an instance does not mean we can never have an opinion on anything BGG related ever again. So let's just move right on past that shall we? Please?

Randy, I guess I don't see it as the BGG Ghetto - why do you? I think its fun. Really the only questions I don't care for are the particularly racy ones. I'd have no problem nuking those but I like a majority of the rest of the ones that I have seen.

I guess that to me "Do you have an electric or gas oven" is no better or worse than "If you were a wrestler what would your name and gimmick be" - both are just funny little random questions.
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BeyondMonopoly wrote:


Quote:
Turning GeekQuestions into the BGG Ghetto has been a multi-year effort that isn't getting any better.

Take the whole GeekQuestions module away and BGG has lost nothing of value.

I disagree with that. There are some really funny things in there. Value is in the eye of the beholder which is the crux of my point that it would be hard to weed out "good" questions and "bad" questions.

In thinking about it a bit more what about if a question went unanswered for some amount of time - say two weeks or something it got automagically deleted. The questioner could re-ask or re-do it but then at least unanswered questions would go away.
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grimjester wrote:
Mostly for fun, that is. There's also a secret contest with a $10,000 prize. To this day it is still unclaimed...


I'm claiming that action!!!!111oneoneonehundredeleven
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vandemonium wrote:
BeyondMonopoly wrote:
Randy Cox wrote:
Sure.

Messing with one game's ratings lasted 24 hours and didn't affect anything.

That's completely false, and you know it. I really expected better of you, Randy. Some of those ratings are still there, and some 10's it doesn't deserve. Who knows what the right rank for it would have been.


Man, David, look the Agricola thing happened it got out of hand - any further discussion of that is appropriate for the complaint department not here. I am not trying to be curt but I really don't think you are ever going to agree with Randy's take on it nor mine. IMO pretty much everything has been said on that topic. Because we made a poor judgment in an instance does not mean we can never have an opinion on anything BGG related ever again. So let's just move right on past that shall we? Please?

Actually, no we can still talk about it. Randy said it was over and done with, and it isn't. I don't tend to let falsehoods stand unchallenged.

Furthermore, I have never, ever, on this forum or any other, made my opinion of what happened in that mess made known. You may presume you know my stance on it simply because you know i am a fan of the game, but I can most assuredly tell you that you would not know the full story.

Furthermore, I see the problem that Randy has with GeekQuestions as parallel to the problem others had with the whole Agricola Ratings Debacle -- some users were having fun with some part of BGG in some way that some others didn't like. For him to presume to tell others how to enjoy the GeekQuestions portion of BGG is no different from others trying to tell people not "pull a prank" with the ratings system.
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10,000 new users named mi1 to mi10000 have just arrived. They all be bots, who be giving 3.243F6A8885A308D31319 in hexidecimal notation for all eternity. Griagloca is goin' down for the count. Again.

Initiating the MI10000 program NOW.
10 launch bots
20 enter username $mi1$ (string $ $+1)
24 bots rate X number random 'games' @ 3-7
30 call "cola.ag" file (x57)
39 rate x57 @ 3.243F6A8885A308D31319
40 send message "the Pi is a lie" to $user$ = (x57 rate = 9, 10)
terminate bots
 
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Does it really matter one way or the other if people use this somewhat hidden corner of BGG for their amusement (or even for self-gratification to get a high rating). It's not a core part of BGG, and doesn't impact on the parts dealing with games at all. One could view it as a sandbox to distract some of the more chaotic elements!

Anyone who actually has a serious question (for example, about a game) would naturally ask it in the appropriate forum. I doubt most people even know GeekQuestions is there. And I'm pretty sure that 99.99999% (or thereabouts) of people who do find it quickly recognise it for what it is.

It's harmless and irrelevant. It may even have a useful function as a safety valve.

I wouldn't want Aldie to waste time coding any changes; there are changes which would have a much bigger and more useful impact.

The suggestion to automatically eliminate unanswered questions after a couple of weeks is a good one, but only if the time required to implement it was very small would it be worth bothering to do so, in my book.

Eddy
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BeyondMonopoly wrote:
vandemonium wrote:
BeyondMonopoly wrote:
Randy Cox wrote:
Sure.

Messing with one game's ratings lasted 24 hours and didn't affect anything.

That's completely false, and you know it. I really expected better of you, Randy. Some of those ratings are still there, and some 10's it doesn't deserve. Who knows what the right rank for it would have been.


Man, David, look the Agricola thing happened it got out of hand - any further discussion of that is appropriate for the complaint department not here. I am not trying to be curt but I really don't think you are ever going to agree with Randy's take on it nor mine. IMO pretty much everything has been said on that topic. Because we made a poor judgment in an instance does not mean we can never have an opinion on anything BGG related ever again. So let's just move right on past that shall we? Please?

Actually, no we can still talk about it. Randy said it was over and done with, and it isn't. I don't tend to let falsehoods stand unchallenged.

Furthermore, I have never, ever, on this forum or any other, made my opinion of what happened in that mess made known. You may presume you know my stance on it simply because you know i am a fan of the game, but I can most assuredly tell you that you would not know the full story.

Furthermore, I see the problem that Randy has with GeekQuestions as parallel to the problem others had with the whole Agricola Ratings Debacle -- some users were having fun with some part of BGG in some way that some others didn't like. For him to presume to tell others how to enjoy the GeekQuestions portion of BGG is no different from others trying to tell people not "pull a prank" with the ratings system.


I agree the Agricola thing was a mess - on BOTH sides of the coin.
If you want to start a different thread then please do so, but don't weave the two things. I understand you see parallels but as I said, what happened there does not negate the ability for Randy to have an opinion on this - and it would seem a different opinion than my own.

If you want to be part of the solution rather than part of the problem I would ask you to drop the Agricola stuff or send your issues to an admin. Further public discussion of it is not likely to have a positive impact on anyone.

If you want to argue "falsehoods" with Randy I would ask you to do so via PM - I see no value to the community to discuss it here.

Thanks,
David


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vandemonium wrote:
If you want to start a different thread then please do so, but don't weave the two things.

If you want to be part of the solution rather than part of the problem I would ask you to drop the Agricola stuff or send your issues to an admin. Further public discussion of it is not likely to have a positive impact on anyone.

If you want to argue "falsehoods" with Randy I would ask you to do so via PM - I see no value to the community to discuss it here.

Wow, who made you the final arbiter of what and where I could post, again?

I see these issues as related and I don't have to drop that on your say-so. My point of view doesn't need to be brought to an admin's attention, but Randy still has not adequately answered the question I asked. Finally, he made a false statement in public, and I can call him on that, in public. And I will if I see it again, from him, or you or anyone else.

And if you don't like it, you can go start a different thread, take your issues to an admin, or take it to private mail, no?
 
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BeyondMonopoly wrote:
vandemonium wrote:
If you want to start a different thread then please do so, but don't weave the two things.

If you want to be part of the solution rather than part of the problem I would ask you to drop the Agricola stuff or send your issues to an admin. Further public discussion of it is not likely to have a positive impact on anyone.

If you want to argue "falsehoods" with Randy I would ask you to do so via PM - I see no value to the community to discuss it here.

Wow, who made you the final arbiter of what and where I could post, again?

I see these issues as related and I don't have to drop that on your say-so. My point of view doesn't need to be brought to an admin's attention, but Randy still has not adequately answered the question I asked. Finally, he made a false statement in public, and I can call him on that, in public. And I will if I see it again, from him, or you or anyone else.

And if you don't like it, you can go start a different thread, take your issues to an admin, or take it to private mail, no?

Done!
 
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Whoa. Go away for a few hours and a new firestorm erupts. Sure am glad I'm not an admin around here.

I think Vandemonium and I aren't as far apart as he thinks. I enjoy GeekQuestions. I even consider myself to be at least a semi-regular over there. But have you noticed how much junk is still around. A question like, "What about Britney's latest exploit?" or "Did you see the third sequal?" have lost a lot of meaning. Questions like "What would your WWF name and schtick be?" are ageless (well, if you don't mention WWF, at least).

I like GQ and the silliness and the serious questions. I just think there are two problems:

1) the number of meaningful questions (including the silly ones) are significantly outnumbered by the out-of-date and simply unintelligible questions

2) the quest for rising on the stats page (both in questions asked and questions answered) has had a negative effect in that people ask questions they otherwise wouldn't just to rise and people answer questions they have no true opinion about simply to get another tick mark on that ledger

I was looking for a behavior modification tool that wouldn't make GQ go away but, rather, make them even more interesting. I've been answering random questions lately and have noticed just how much crap is really out there. And as one of the few people who enjoy reading answers, I've noticed that those, too, have a ton of junk answers ("N/A", "42", "Too much to think about...I'll just type this to get credit").

The reason I call it the "BGG Ghetto" is because it's nearly unreachable. It's better now that there is a front page module, but then once you get there, you can't really navigate about very well. You click on a questioner's or answerer's name, hoping to read the rest of their questions/answers and you're thrown back into the main BGG city looking at a profile, where you then have to click another tab where you can click on their questions asked or questions answered link to finally get where you hoped to be from the outset.

In other words, it's this little neighborhood that's only barely connected to BGG and not even fully integrated within its own space. I want it to be better, not to go away. I want GQs to show at random on the front page (hence, we need to weed out the crap) to lure people into the neighborhood. Anyway, enough about that. Now I have to go deal with that whole Agricola thing again.

David, you're a fine word game partner, so I have no ax to grind with you (that's not the only reason, just a little tidbit thrown in). Agricola is where it should be. If there be a rating or two left over from the fiasco, so be it. It all works out in the wash, especially when a game rises up to play with the Big Boys in the top 20. I am confident that the prank has caused no changes in that game's rank. It may have caused a few people to get their Fruit of the Looms in a wad over either the original action or the small but vocal response to it. But even those retaliations have zero effect on the ultimate rating of this game. There are a lot of ratings out there and the algorithmic models used on this site mitigate any sway outliers have over the rank. It truly is a non-issue.

As to equating my desire to clean up GeekQuestions to a desire to clean up bogus ratings for Agricola, maybe they're the same. I don't know. All I'm saying is that, like the incident, the prank at GQ can be over (after years) and I'd be happy. If the question log isn't cleaned up, I won't lose any sleep over it. Just as I wouldn't lose any sleep over a game having a few extra good and bad ratings. It's all just surrounding landscape. Pretty or ugly, but having no real impact.

But if there is a desire to make GQ even more visible (and the recent changes make me think Aldie wants that), I am hoping there would be a concerted effort to bring GQ out of the "in crowd" sandbox and make it accessible to a broader audience.

But again, if it remains a separate part of BGG, fine. I'll still go there and ask questions about toilets and luddite philosophies.
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Ed_the_Red wrote:
It's harmless and irrelevant. It may even have a useful function as a safety valve.

I wouldn't want Aldie to waste time coding any changes; there are changes which would have a much bigger and more useful impact.

The suggestion to automatically eliminate unanswered questions after a couple of weeks is a good one, but only if the time required to implement it was very small would it be worth bothering to do so, in my book.

Agreed 100%. There are so many things that Aldie has on his plate I can't imagine an overhaul of GeekQuestions would be high on the list. Of course, no harm in discussing possible changes. No guarantee an overhaul would ever reach a priority high enough to make it happen but that isn't our call anyhow.

GeekQuestions are like that stupid little filler game that many people enjoy in spite of pretty much everything about it. Cheers!
 
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Randy Cox wrote:
David, you're a fine word game partner, so I have no ax to grind with you (that's not the only reason, just a little tidbit thrown in).

I like you too, randy, and I am sure that won't change.

Quote:
Agricola is where it should be. If there be a rating or two left over from the fiasco, so be it. It all works out in the wash, especially when a game rises up to play with the Big Boys in the top 20. I am confident that the prank has caused no changes in that game's rank.

You are more confident than i am in that regard then.

Quote:
It may have caused a few people to get their Fruit of the Looms in a wad over either the original action or the small but vocal response to it. But even those retaliations have zero effect on the ultimate rating of this game. There are a lot of ratings out there and the algorithmic models used on this site mitigate any sway outliers have over the rank. It truly is a non-issue.

As to equating my desire to clean up GeekQuestions to a desire to clean up bogus ratings for Agricola, maybe they're the same. I don't know. All I'm saying is that, like the incident, the prank at GQ can be over (after years) and I'd be happy. If the question log isn't cleaned up, I won't lose any sleep over it. Just as I wouldn't lose any sleep over a game having a few extra good and bad ratings. It's all just surrounding landscape. Pretty or ugly, but having no real impact.

Personally, i don't use GeekQuestions. I did for the first day or two they were around, but it got old fast. I can see why others might find it fun, though. I also think that if we start feeling like we need to better police certain areas of BGG for the user-generated content therein, that GeekQuestions might not be the most important place to worry about.

Quote:
But if there is a desire to make GQ even more visible (and the recent changes make me think Aldie wants that), I am hoping there would be a concerted effort to bring GQ out of the "in crowd" sandbox and make it accessible to a broader audience.

But again, if it remains a separate part of BGG, fine. I'll still go there and ask questions about toilets and luddite philosophies.

And i promise not to interfere with that.

For the record, I was against the idea behind the "prank" (i was against the Monkey Auto races thing too), but even worse, to me, was the response that was generated, and the response to the response. Far more vitriol that was really necessary or even warranted was spewed out in that mess.
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BeyondMonopoly wrote:


For the record, I was against the idea behind the "prank" (i was against the Monkey Auto races thing too), but even worse, to me, was the response that was generated, and the response to the response. Far more vitriol that was really necessary or even warranted was spewed out in that mess.


And on that I think we *all* can agree

Back to geek questions - I see your point Randy. Some of the questions that refer to a specific time do become dated. Here is another idea to augment my no answer-automagically deleted. On top of that what if a question was not answered for a lengthy period of time - say a year. Once a year questions that had not been answered would be pruned or archived or given an "old" flag - so that if someone wanted to see it - they could but they would be less visible.
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vandemonium wrote:
Here is another idea to augment my no answer-automagically deleted. On top of that what if a question was not answered for a lengthy period of time - say a year. Once a year questions that had not been answered would be pruned or archived
The problem is that so many people will answer a question that is dated with a snide or silly response just to get credit for answering another question or to point out how dated the question is. This starts the one-year timer all over again.

Now, a one-month timer, that would be neat.
 
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