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Subject: New Aldaris Variant rss

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As many have noted, Aldaris probably has the toughest Special Victory Condition in the game (well, Tassadar and Queen of Blades are no walk in the park either, but that's another issue). Aldaris must wait till the game ends naturally (two "EDN" cards are turned), where every other race has usually achieved it's special victory the moment a Phase 3 card is turned. Not only this, but Aldaris doesn't even win when the game ends naturally unless no other player has 20 Victory Points. In this way, he is trumped twice, and must try to achieve his Special Victory (by making his opponents not achieve theirs for long stretches of the game) AND have more victory points than his opponents (if any have 20 by the end of the game, which is very common).

Here is my suggested variant, hopefully it alleviates the Aldaris problem somewhat:

Special Victory Condition: Aldaris immediately wins the game when the first "The End Draws Near" card is turned.

Thoughts? It would certainly fix the weird timing issue with the old victory condition (basically, the "20 Victory Points" victory triggers BEFORE his special victory!). As it stands right now, Aldaris has the only special victory that has LOWER priority than regular victories!
 
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Owen Sieber
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I do not think his SVC should be changed at all...

when two EDN cards are played, Aldaris wins... no matter how many victory points anyone has... it is immediate.

He also only needs to gain 15vp where everyone else much have 20vp. 5vp is huge in this game. If Aldaris sits on 3vp for the whole game, from start to finish... he will win by stage 3... (most of the time)

Aldaris has to play aggressive to win, just like the other races. He starts out the game with a Dragoon... BIG early advantage. in early game, there is no unit that can take that dragoon out. If he makes a lunge at a planet with his opening forces, he will win that battle. I have seen it happen.

I think you have to play to STOP the others... be the spoiler... if you do that and hang on to a few VP a turn, you will win.



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Gergely Orsó
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model359 wrote:

when two EDN cards are played, Aldaris wins... no matter how many victory points anyone has... it is immediate.


Agreeing with your other points, this is (sadly)not true. Although EDN cards end the game immadiately, you only get a chance to see that you've drawn any if it's the "play event cards" step, which comes after...yes, both "check for victory" steps!

Am I missing something? Can you look on the event cards before that step? It would be a big help, so I hope you can, but I can't find anything about that in the rules...
 
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Yep, Lord Vetinari is right. If model359 were correct, then Regular Victory would essentially be impossible (aka if Aldaris wins immediately when 2 EDN are played, you would never get around to triggering regular VP, which would amazingly make his "20 VP" trait even more pants than it is).
 
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Owen Sieber
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Lord Vetinari wrote:
model359 wrote:

when two EDN cards are played, Aldaris wins... no matter how many victory points anyone has... it is immediate.


Agreeing with your other points, this is (sadly)not true. Although EDN cards end the game immadiately, you only get a chance to see that you've drawn any if it's the "play event cards" step, which comes after...yes, both "check for victory" steps!

Am I missing something? Can you look on the event cards before that step? It would be a big help, so I hope you can, but I can't find anything about that in the rules...


I think you misnderstood what I was saying. When both cards are played, the game is over. at that point, aldaris will win. Even if he does not have the most victory point. I know this comes after normal victory conditions and SVC... but in a normal game, if it would end with a EDN event, the aldaris wins, that is all I was pointing out.

I was not sure if Galadrin understood it.
 
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Chris Cieslik
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Yes--but if someone else claims special victory that turn, they get precedence since that happens before Event Cards are drawn.
 
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Actually I don't think I did. I've played the game 2 and a half times and rereading the rules I realised an error I made. For some reason, I had combined the "End Victory" and "Normal Victory" and thought normal victory was only triggered by two EDN cards. With the whole timing issue worked out a little better, I'm partially mollified. I still feel the need to tinker with Aldaris somehow (he is still the weakest of the bunch), but he now seems a little more playable at least. The fact stands that every other victory condition has priority over Aldaris, in both that they trigger first (in-turn priority) AND that they do not need to wait till the end of the game (meta-turn priority).
 
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Owen Sieber
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angelkurisu wrote:
Yes--but if someone else claims special victory that turn, they get precedence since that happens before Event Cards are drawn.


agreed... that is why Aldaris has to be aggressive to prevent that from happening...

with the other races needing 20 for regular victory, that is a big edge to Aldaris if he can help prevent the SVC of others.

Also, he is not the only one trying to do this. all others have to play the same way if they are too win.

If I am playing against 3 other and one is aldaris, that is tough. Because I also have to help prevent the others from achieving SVC so I can win.

Because all races have a different SVC and you lose if you can not stop them, aldaris is very tough to play against...
 
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Tom Grant
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Actually, the only variant I'd propose for Aldaris is, Don't use him in your first game. Manipulating the pace of event card play is important for any player, but it's critical for Aldaris. Once you've played the game once or twice, you'll have an idea of what Aldaris needs to do to increase the number of event cards played per turn. From that point, it's a race between the event card deck and the accumulation of victory points.
 
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wodan wodan
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Aldaris is better the fewer players there are, because he has limited control of how fast other players chew up event cards, and has less SVCs to worry about blocking.

if the game ends, aldaris wins, so long as no one has fulfilled either their normal or svc conditions. If aldaris has 0 victory points and everyone else has 19 and no svc, HE STILL WINS. When the game ends Aldaris is the ultimate tiebreaker.

Its important to remember that Aldaris can simply go for victory points, which he has a substantial edge in. He will be able to reach it easier than other players.

Aldaris can by using building the the tech module, get 3 research cards a turn. He can also intentionally obstruct opponents, making them use up event cards, and then convert his own orders into event cards. It is very easy for Aldaris to rush a game.
 
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Nick K

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Galadrin wrote:
Special Victory Condition: Aldaris immediately wins the game when the first "The End Draws Near" card is turned.


I like this variant. Aldaris has a tough SVC. Where I've seen them shine the most is when they start near 3 VPs. The 5 point VP advantage is very good but is nullified by starting planets containing no VPs. Most of the SVCs are very easy and are triggered immediately upon reaching stage III.

In a larger game the Aldaris is screwed if they are too far from another player and can't stop them from reaching their SVC. They also can't control the pace of the event deck as much in a larger game.

However this variant would be slightly overpowered in a smaller game where the Aldaris faction has more influence on the event card deck and can reach all the players to prevent SVCs. Maybe for games of 4 or more players use the first End Draws Near card. With 2-3 players keep it with the original two End Draws Near cards.
 
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Cameron McKenzie
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You guys are thinking along the lines of
"Aldaris SVC is tougher to do than any other factions SVC."

which is completely true.
An important point to not overlook however is this
"Aldaris normal victory is easier to achieve than any of the other factions."

Consider the fact that Aldaris has a "5-point lead" on normal victory already, and it makes sense that his special victory is weaker. If he's stronger in normal and equal in special, that's not balanced.
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Kester J
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MasterDinadan wrote:
You guys are thinking along the lines of
"Aldaris SVC is tougher to do than any other factions SVC."

which is completely true.
An important point to not overlook however is this
"Aldaris normal victory is easier to achieve than any of the other factions."

Consider the fact that Aldaris has a "5-point lead" on normal victory already, and it makes sense that his special victory is weaker. If he's stronger in normal and equal in special, that's not balanced.


Aldaris' normal victory is not easier to achieve: everyone else's is tougher to achieve. It's an important distinction. To elaborate:-

1) Aldaris' special victory is tougher to do than any other faction's special victory.
2) All other factions' normal victory is tougher to do than Aldaris' normal victory.
3) Most games end with special victory, rendering normal victory irrelevant.
All of which adds up to...
4) Aldaris is harder to win with, as his relevant victory condition is harder.


Even if he made other factions need twenty-thousand CP to win, I'd wager he'd probably still win less than 1/6th of the time, because others would still claim their special victory before he could claim normal victory.

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Jon L
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I think most of you are looking at it wrong. My group has "figured out" Aldaris, to the point where whenever he is playing he either wins, or other players must gang up on him because he is just about to win.

The following thoughts come from mostly larger games (at least four players), which I happen to think are the most fun.

His special victory is indeed very hard. Partly because it gets checked after others, and partly because stage 3 cards are never played. Or if they are, what is the chance that two End Draws Near's will come up in the single round of stage three you play? Our group has played maybe one round of stage three out of the last 10-15 games. Therefore, I would say don't bother going for this if you have the choice. Especially in large games.

It's all about his 5-point lead. Put your starting base wherever there are points. Make your first expansion to the planet next to you with the most points. Ideally, go for empty planets first, just because you need points and you need them early. You also need to conserve your units whenever possible since you are, of course, Protoss. You must pursue the game with this mindset, and you will do well.

Don't listen to people who say you must stop other victory conditions; that is a lie. Points are your only concern.

You have to SLOW the event deck, because by the time you get to Stage 3, you've lost (unless you have 15 CP that turn). Why? Because as others have said, Aldaris' special victory SUCKS. It'll never happen. Ever. Just accept it and stop whining. In my experience, theres about a 90% chance that somebody WILL have their win condition fulfilled as soon as Stage 3 hits. And that will cause them to win before you can even start checking your Event hand for End Draws Near cards. You MUST go all out to pursue those CP, or you will likely come in last.

In conclusion, Aldaris is the best faction IMO. You just have to stay focused on your goal at all times. If everybody scratches their heads and complains when instead of taking away Tassadar's one-territory lead, you take the last-place Raynor's CP area, you can laugh at them at the end of the game when you win long before wussy special victories come into effect.
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