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Subject: Firebat cards!? rss

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Evan Champie
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I have played 2 games of two players, and so far I love the game. As big fans of the PC game, this was a treat to play.

However, I can't believe that certain Terran cards weren't misprinted, and you know the ones I'm talking about. They show a Firebat/Marine on one, and a Firebat/Vulture on the other, and they give the attack splash damage regardless of whether a Firebat is present.

Why do vultures and marines get splash damage? This makes zero sense and devalues Firebats, making them a worse investment than they already are.

Examples abound in the other race's decks of how this should have worked. For example, Hyralisk/Zergling reads "If your front-line is a Hydra, get +1 vs an air unit" among many similar cards that don't grant abilities to all pictured units.

We are houseruling that the Splash damage only works on firebats, as this seems too obvious to be intentional. Anybody else think this is a better idea?
 
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Nick K

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I thought the same thing when I first saw the cards. I don't think it's a misprint but it definitely devalues the firebat.
 
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Alan Rqthstar
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Given that it shows in the rest of the game that they tried really hard to stay as accurate to the PC game as possible, I'd say this is a misprint and that it only makes sense for the firebat to have the splash damage.
 
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Scott Lewis
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The Marine one, if I recall, only has splash against the weakest units. This probably represents the Marines ability to do rapid fire to kill multiple weaker units in succession. The Firebat was added to give it more variety.

The Vulture one, I'm not sure. I don't remember if their grenades were "target unit only" or had some small splash in the PC game.

Rather than devaluing the Firebat, I think it makes sure they aren't overlooked. The Terrans have the most unit types of any race, and only 1 of them is an Assist-only unit (giving them 8 attacking units, vs 6 for the protoss and zerg). Because each race has exactly 18 combat cards (and the number is the same for each race I would assume to make sure card cycling is relatively even), that means that the Terran cards have more overlap.

In fact, the Protoss have 4 non-overlapping cards (3 Zealot and 1 Scout). The Zerg have 3 (all Zergling). The Terrans, because they have more unit types, have NONE; all 18 cards had to be dual-use in order to not give any unit the shaft.

In the PC game, the Firebat "splash" was very limited. In practice, it was really only super-useful against the weak units (though it did affect some bigger units to a lesser extent). In fact, because it was limited to "close combat" type fighting essentially, that may be why the "splash" for the Firebats in this game are limited; in the strategic-level fighting, close-combat isn't really a factor. However, to simulate the Firebats ability to mow down groups of weak units, they gave the splash. Marines can do the same thing, too, in the game. I never really used Vultures much in the PC game, but perhaps the potency of their grenades is represented by their ability to do some "mow-down" of cannon-fodder units, too. However, Firebats still have more "splash" potential than the Marines (2 cards vs 1) and the Vulture (unless Spider Mines is acquired).

Building Firebats in the game might be something to think about situationally. Firebats can be better than Marines against other Terrans, because they aren't affected by the Firebat/Marine/Vulture splash like Marines would be. And although they cannot fight Mutalisks, they ARE immune to the Mutalisk splash, too.

So it all depends on the situation, but for me, that's like the PC game. I mostly stocked up on Marines, and only bought a few Firebats for specific situations - they were too expensive to be my "main combat unit".
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Kester J
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Yeah, I believe it's been confirmed that the cards are supposed to provide splash damage to all the units. Apart from making the firebat worthless, I really think the marine splash hurts the protoss early game, but I've heard others say they think its fair. (I made the same point in a thread on the FFG forums). God only knows what the thinking behind this decision was; as far as I can see, it makes firebats a unit you'll only build if you have spare gas and workers and nothing better to spend it on. If you've got the minerals, vultures are objectively better units: all the firebat cards you can't use with marines you can use with vultures, so vultures give you access to more and better combat cards than firebats while costing the same number of workers to build. Even if you don't have the gas, marines are a better unit in a lot of circumstances.
 
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Owen Sieber
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You also have to look at the rest of the card...

It is only valid for the simple base units... the splash damage can not kill any larger than the base unit.

I think they did this to help balance the strength of the zealot and the numbers of zerg...

 
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Scott Lewis
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Kester wrote:
Even if you don't have the gas, marines are a better unit in a lot of circumstances.

Just like the PC game
 
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Petras Ražanskas
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sigmazero13 wrote:
Kester wrote:
Even if you don't have the gas, marines are a better unit in a lot of circumstances.

Just like the PC game


Indeed I find swarm of marines almost always more effective than sworm of firebats. If you mix them up and add medic, on another hand...
 
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Pierre Philippe Goyer
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Scuzball wrote:

We are houseruling that the Splash damage only works on firebats, as this seems too obvious to be intentional. Anybody else think this is a better idea?


I totally agree with you. We play it that way.

Owll
 
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Evan Champie
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So the consensus is that the cards are fine and firebats suck?

Inconceivable!

I do not think that means what you think it means
 
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Cameron McKenzie
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I'm starting to think it might be better if Firebats alone got the splash. Let's face it -- Spider Mines is a wicked tech card and vultures are plenty good even if you take away their normal splash damage (they don't have splash damage in the PC game)
A point was brought up that terrans need the splash damage deal with the large numbers of zerglings that Zerg can deploy early in the game...
But they can just build Firebats! Think about the PC game (if you've played it) Firebats tear apart Zerglings, but in the board game they aren't any better than marines.
Would marines be too weak? I don't think so. They'd still be good to take out air units with Stim Packs. "Glass Cannons" so to speak.

The splash damage is only effective at taking groups of weak ground units. Precisely what firebats OUGHT to be good at.
 
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MasterDinadan wrote:
The splash damage is only effective at taking groups of weak ground units. Precisely what firebats OUGHT to be good at.

Marines are good at that.

One firebat isn't going to take out a group of units. One marine won't either. But a group of marines is going to be effective against weak units just like a group of firebats. The firebats may need LESS to do their job, but the marines have the "mow down" ability, too.


When I play the PC game, I very rarely buy Firebats en mass, because they cost more, have shorter range, can't attack air, and can sometimes be a liability in that if I recall correctly, if your own guys get too close they can get toasted too (either too close to the target, or too close to the firebat if/when it goes boom).

Firebats are good at certain things, but marines are often the better choice from my experience.

Removing the splash to make them firebat-only wouldn't really provide any marked benefits, in my opinion. It's a change for change sake.
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Petras Ražanskas
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sigmazero13 wrote:
Removing the splash to make them firebat-only wouldn't really provide any marked benefits, in my opinion. It's a change for change sake.


It's a change for consistency sake, to be honest.
 
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Scott Lewis
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carnifex wrote:
sigmazero13 wrote:
Removing the splash to make them firebat-only wouldn't really provide any marked benefits, in my opinion. It's a change for change sake.


It's a change for consistency sake, to be honest.

Consistency? Do explain, I don't understand how it's less consistent as-is.
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Cameron McKenzie
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sigmazero13 wrote:
carnifex wrote:
sigmazero13 wrote:
Removing the splash to make them firebat-only wouldn't really provide any marked benefits, in my opinion. It's a change for change sake.


It's a change for consistency sake, to be honest.

Consistency? Do explain, I don't understand how it's less consistent as-is.


Consistent with the PC game. Every other combat card and tech cards grants abilities to units if they actually have the ability in the PC game. Marines and Vultures have basic combat cards for splash damage when they do not in fact have any sort of splash damage whatsoever (except spider mines)
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Petras Ražanskas
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sigmazero13 wrote:
carnifex wrote:
sigmazero13 wrote:
Removing the splash to make them firebat-only wouldn't really provide any marked benefits, in my opinion. It's a change for change sake.


It's a change for consistency sake, to be honest.

Consistency? Do explain, I don't understand how it's less consistent as-is.


They have nothing to do with the reality of the game universe, i.e. the cards as they are are inconsistent with the video game. Splash damage for Marines? What next, Cloak for Tanks?
 
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Alan Rqthstar
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carnifex wrote:
They have nothing to do with the reality of the game universe, i.e. the cards as they are are inconsistent with the video game. Splash damage for Marines? What next, Cloak for Tanks?

Well, in Brood War, you can Mind Control an SCV, build a factory, build some tanks, then stick them under your arbiter. Presto, cloak for tanks.

But marines never have and never will have splash damage.
 
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David
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Firebats are FAR from useless. I was building the damn things like crazy last night.

Why?

Because by the end of the game, my main enemy was a Zerg player with fully teched out defilers and all ground units. Take a look at Dark Swarm. There's only 1 Terran unit that's allowed to attack ground units when that cards in play. Guess which one?
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Scott Lewis
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carnifex wrote:
sigmazero13 wrote:
carnifex wrote:
sigmazero13 wrote:
Removing the splash to make them firebat-only wouldn't really provide any marked benefits, in my opinion. It's a change for change sake.


It's a change for consistency sake, to be honest.

Consistency? Do explain, I don't understand how it's less consistent as-is.


They have nothing to do with the reality of the game universe, i.e. the cards as they are are inconsistent with the video game. Splash damage for Marines? What next, Cloak for Tanks?

Apparently you didn't read my post about how "splash damage" for marines in this context DOES make sense.

Splash Damage in the game just means that you are able to kill multiple units at a time. In the PC game, a group of Marines can do that against weaker units just like Firebats can. In the board game, one Marine figure does not represent one single Marine, but rather a group, and the Splash card simply represents the ability for that group of marine to take out a group, perhaps due to extra micromanagement. It's consistent with the board game, especially since it only works against "weak" units.
 
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