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Subject: Why would anyone NOT choose the witch? rss

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Evan Stegman
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If you have the witch role available to you to be chosen, why wouldn't you take it?

You get your action and possibly a special ability.

If you take any other role you get your action but your special ability is at risk to the witch.

So what reason would there be to not take the witch if you have the chance?
 
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Tim Rogers
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If the character you select as the witch doesn't get chosen then no special action for you. If you really want to use a specific special action one turn, the only way to guarantee you get it is to take that character, otherwise no one else might pick that character and the witch won't help you.
 
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Farid Widjaya
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the character you want to bewitch might not be in play this round
 
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Evan Stegman
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I understand that (which is why I said "possibly") but suppose you want to use the merchant's ability and you have both the witch and the merchant to choose from.

If you choose the merchant, there is a chance of losing your special ability to the witch because you are leaving available for someone else to choose. Choosing the role and leaving the witch for someone else does not "guarantee" you get the ability.

If you take the witch, there is a chance no one will choose the merchant.

At best, there is no difference. Either way you might not get to use the ability.

But if you think it is likely that someone will choose the merchant, then you should take the witch.

To me, especially if you are fairly early in the order, there is a good chance someone will choose the role you want so you might as well just take the witch every time.

Even if no one chooses the role with the ability you want, you didn't lose anything you might not have lost by selecting the role and leaving the witch available for someone else anyway.

The only time (aside from if you are last to choose) I can see not choosing the witch and leaving it available for someone else to choose would be is if you are very confident whoever might choose the witch won't want the ability of the role you choose.
 
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Tim Rogers
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I agree with you that the witch does seem overpowered. And although I made an argument for not taking the witch above, I fully agree with you, and don't see a reason not to take the witch in most circumstances. This is why we almost never play with the witch; the assassin is awesome enough.
 
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Nate Straight

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I was under the impression that you couldn't build when you had chosen the Witch until the character whom you bewitched turned up. If that character never comes up, your Witch is pretty much useless as you'll only get your two gold or one card.
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Kevin Brown
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The Witch never makes it past player #1 around here. Since that player knows what the face down cards are, his chances of picking an "in play" power are very high.
 
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Mike Adams
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NateStraight wrote:
I was under the impression that you couldn't build when you had chosen the Witch until the character whom you bewitched turned up. If that character never comes up, your Witch is pretty much useless as you'll only get your two gold or one card.


This combined with the uncertainty of which characters were chosen is why I prefer the witch in 2 to 4 player games. With more players, I would rather use the assassin.
 
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J
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Mike A wrote:
NateStraight wrote:
I was under the impression that you couldn't build when you had chosen the Witch until the character whom you bewitched turned up. If that character never comes up, your Witch is pretty much useless as you'll only get your two gold or one card.


This combined with the uncertainty of which characters were chosen is why I prefer the witch in 2 to 4 player games. With more players, I would rather use the assassin.


Except for in a 3-player game, where you can choose the Witch as your first role, then see which two roles the other player picked when you get to pick your second role. I don't think the Witch (or Assassin) works very well in a 3p game.
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Gláucio Reis
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Quote:
If you have the witch role available to you to be chosen, why wouldn't you take it?

You get your action and possibly a special ability.

The action you take is to get two coins or a card. I guess you are missing that you cannot build if the bewitched character is not chosen.
 
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Evan Stegman
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GSReis wrote:
Quote:
If you have the witch role available to you to be chosen, why wouldn't you take it?

You get your action and possibly a special ability.

The action you take is to get two coins or a card. I guess you are missing that you cannot build if the bewitched character is not chosen.


No, that's why I said "possibly".

The point is, that if you are first to choose, there is a chance you won't get your special ability whether you chose the witch (role you pick isn't chosen) or you leave the witch for someone else to choose (the witch picks your role).

So the question is: given that there is a risk you won't get to use the ability either way, why not just choose the witch every time?
 
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Graham Smallwood
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TWO Equals in an "if" statement!!!
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EvanMinn wrote:
GSReis wrote:
Quote:
If you have the witch role available to you to be chosen, why wouldn't you take it?

You get your action and possibly a special ability.

The action you take is to get two coins or a card. I guess you are missing that you cannot build if the bewitched character is not chosen.


No, that's why I said "possibly".

The point is, that if you are first to choose, there is a chance you won't get your special ability whether you chose the witch (role you pick isn't chosen) or you leave the witch for someone else to choose (the witch picks your role).

So the question is: given that there is a risk you won't get to use the ability either way, why not just choose the witch every time?


Not getting to build for a turn in a game where you race to build a certain number of buildings seems like a risky bet.
 
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Evan Stegman
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Dorque wrote:

Not getting to build for a turn in a game where you race to build a certain number of buildings seems like a risky bet.


Are you referring to leaving the witch for someone else to take and not being able to build because you end up bewitched or taking the witch and not being able to build because no one takes the role you want to bewitch?

Either way you miss out on building.

The point of the question is not that one way risks missing out on building and the other doesn't (that is a risk either way) but whether taking the witch is the less risky option.
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Joe Grundy
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The Witch is an optional character, and you add her to games when the circumstances are appropriate.

The Witch does not change who gets their Action, so nobody's income is affected. If a player misses a build cycle and finds themselves with too much cash they're likely to take the opportunity to build an expensive building next turn, or try to get the Architect and do a multiple build. If you also take out the Thief and use the Tax Collector, a person who didn't get to build in a turn is not so stressed.

In a 2p game the Witch is an even bet. You have two 50/50 choices of what you opponent has chosen and one of the two players gets that special ability and build cycle. The Assassin feels more brutal in 2p... the Assassin gets no special ability but a full turn, while the target may lose everything. We always use the Witch in 2p games these days.

For example, in 2p the Warlord is much more significant (which is why it's my microbadge of choice) since the Warlord can now sensibly pay to destroy an expensive building, thus making 1 gold profit over his opponent AND reducing the average value of his opponent's citadel. (Destroying cheap buildings, even with many players, just makes room for a higher point scoring building.) Going first in 2p games I sometimes deliberately take something quirky but useful the first time and hand over all of the Witch, Warlord, and Bishop. Whatever my opponent chooses is stressful for them... if they take one of those three and drop one of those three I can choose the one they left in, or not.

We play a variant on 3p which makes knowledge less deterministic. We still like having the Witch.

In both cases, the Witch only usually gets it right, whereas if you take the actual character you want and drop the Witch you know you got what you needed. One particular regular opponent of mine, in spite of the nominal 50% random chance with the Witch, has much less than 50% correct chooses against me.


EvanMinn wrote:
The point of the question is not that one way risks missing out on building and the other doesn't (that is a risk either way) but whether taking the witch is the less risky option.
ie for n player games with four or more players then if you take the Witch you have 1/n chance you targetted the Out character, and if you don't take the Witch you have 1/n chance of being targetted by the Witch.

As with the Assassin, it makes the "obvious" characters less valuable and serves to make the players early in the turn think twice about what characters to choose.
 
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