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Subject: Dice changing vs Dice rolling rss

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Mill Master
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Still looking for some clarification on this, even after much searching of the FAQ and boards....

The rules clearly state that if you remove dice from your dice pool, you can not later attempt to roll those removed dice.

The FAQ says that when you change the color of a die, you must have an actual die that you did not roll available to replace the die you are changing.

The rules say I can't roll dice remove for abilities (or monster abilities that my remove them) but can I use those dice for color changing effects?

I don't consider changing a die's color rolling, and the only prohibition the FAQ sets down is that the die must be one I did not roll.

Right now I have been allowing it, but I am not sure if I have missed something...
 
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Simon Lundström
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I read through your post 4 times and I still don't know what you're asking.

If it's "Can I (for example) change a red die into a green one if there is some ability that says 'you cannot roll any red dice if you use this ability'?", the answer is yes.

If you mean "If an effect tells me 'you must remove 2 green dice from your dice pool', can I use these 2 green dice and change them to red dice?" I guess the answer is no, depending on the timing of the effect. However, if the rules clearly state that you CAN change the colour of these dice you're told to remove from your dice pool, I guess you can do that. But I would look at the timing first. If the effect that tells you to remove 2 green dice is timed as "start of your dice pool step" and the ability to change 2 green into 2 red also is "start of your dice pool step", then you can choose in which order these take place. Although I'd say you won't gain anything unless 2 green dice is all you have. Because if you have 4 green dice, and then change 2 into red, and THEN take the effect of "removing 2 greens", you can't claim "I'm removing the 2 greens I just changed into red, ha ha!". You'll only "escape" this effect of removing 2 green dice if you have no green dice left after the colour change.

Did'ya follow?

What the rules basically mean, is that you can't exceed 7 dice on any colour. Say you should roll 7 red, 5 green and 5 blue. In this scenario, you can't change 2 green into more reds, because you're already using 7 reds.
 
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Ben Cole
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Are you talking about Doom Guard ability that remove dice?

In this case I'd say no you can't. The way I read the card is that the dice are not available for the remains of the combat - otherwise his ability loses some of it's power. Lets say 2 red dice have been removed because you rolled 1's/2's in the first round. Next round you are rolling 5 red dice and 'x' of green dice and have an ability which allows you to swap up to two green dice for an equal number of red dice. I feel that the red dice in question would have to be available for you to roll in order for you to do this. In this case they're not so you can't.

As you said if you'd rolled all 7 of each colour the dice woudn't be available for swapping - the Doom Guard has just reduced the available red dice from 7 to 5 for the duration of combat - to all intents and purposes those dice no longer exist for use with any ability.
 
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Throknor
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Zimeon wrote:
What the rules basically mean, is that you can't exceed 7 dice on any colour. Say you should roll 7 red, 5 green and 5 blue. In this scenario, you can't change 2 green into more reds, because you're already using 7 reds.


I think he's asking that if there is some effect that removes two already rolled red dice, could he then immediately swap them back in for two green due to a different effect? In other words: Are diced that are rolled once and then discarded considered to be back in the dice pool for swapping purposes?

I'd say no - they were already used once for rolling, so it seems that they can't show up again in the same overall roll. In other words, say each die actually had a die number on them. If you roll all seven red and then are forced to remove Red-6 and Red-7, you can't bring them back in a swap. Conversely, if you roll five Green and remove Green-4 and Green-5, then Green-6 and Green-7 are still available to swap in.
 
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Mill Master
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I am asking "Is 'changing' a die, the same as 'rolling' it?"

There are effects that allow you to remove dice at the beginning of your dice pool step, re-roll step etc, as well as things like doom guard that just have them removed over an extended period of time.

The rules say that removed dice are not available to ROLL, but it doesn't say anything about changing.

Say I roll 7 red and 5 blue dice. I could use an effect at the start of my dice pool step, the start of re-roll or end of re-roll to remove dice. I can also use re-roll effects in many of those same steps or after.. So I could remove 1 red die at the start of my dice pool step, then at the end of re-roll change a blue 5+ into a red 8.

The FAQ specifically outs the doom guard ability as treating dice as if they were not physically available, but it doesn't out any other dice removing ability as being the same.
 
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Ben Cole
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Which effects are you talking about?

I would rule that any effect that allows you to do something in return for removing a dice would thereby not allow that dice to be used for anything else - after all it has already been used for something.

The way I tend to play with the dice pools is that I draw dice from the main pool, when they are used or removed in any way I place them the other side of the board and only use dice remaining in the pool for other skills/effects. My understanding is that each dice is a one shot use for each round of combat.
 
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Mill Master
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What rules are you referencing that say a roll is the same as a change or that removed dice are unavailable for anything?

The FAQ specifically singles out the doom gaurd's ability as being one that treats removed dice as physically unavailable for any other use. Why did they single this ability out if ALL effects that remove dice should be treated the same way?

I see a rule that says you cant ROLL a die you remove. I don't see anything that says a change is the same as a roll. And I see a FAQ entry that singles out one specific ability rather than a whole class of abilities. This is what is so confusing..
 
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Matthew M
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MillMaster wrote:

I see a rule that says you cant ROLL a die you remove. I don't see anything that says a change is the same as a roll. And I see a FAQ entry that singles out one specific ability rather than a whole class of abilities. This is what is so confusing..


I have to ask...even if you could change a die that you've removed (which you can't)...what effect would it even have? I remove a die. I then change it to an 8. Fantastic! But it's still removed, so has no impact. What did I gain?

-MMM
 
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Ben Cole
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I'm still not clear what ability you are talking about that lets you remove a die.

From my understanding you are asking if a dice that has been removed can then be swapped in due to another effect. So for example your dice pool is all 7 of each colour, you activate an ability/effect that removes 2 green dice. Later you activate an ability that let's you replace two red dice for two green dice and you want to know if you can use the two removed green dice for this. Is this the gist of the question?

I still think it depends on why the dice have been removed - I can't offhand think of what removes dice which is why I'm asking which effect/ability you are asking about.
 
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Simon Lundström
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Ah, now I understand, from his example:

Say you have 7 red and 5 blue in your dice pool. He uses some ability that removes 1 red die. At the end of the dice pool step he has an ability that will change a blue 5+ into a red 8.

Now, this would NOT be allowed if he had rolled all 7 red dice, as you can only have a max of 7 dice of each colour. But is this allowed now, as he actually removed one red die?

I'd say yes. Especially if the FAQ singles out the Doom Guard's ability.
 
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Mill Master
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Ok, there are a ton of effects from powers or items that let you "change color X into Color Y" during the re-roll step, so I won't go into those, but I will try to give some examples of the removal spells.

Enrage works at the Start of your Dice pool and lets you remove up to 3 green dice for energy.

Fear Ward and Dispel work at the end of the Re-roll step and lets you remove any 1 or 2 from any participating players dice pool.

Mage Armor lets you remove any 3 dice at the end of your re-roll step to gain energy.


So if you want a concrete example, say I have rolled 7 red and 7 blue dice and re-rolled those I want to re-roll. Now I deal with end of re-roll abilities. I use Fear Ward to remove 2 blue 1's. I then use Lost Kris of Zedd's second ability to change 2 red 3's into blue 8's

I don't know why rolling or not rolling the removed dice should matter, but at the start of the dice pool step I could use Enrage when rolling 7 green and then later change a blue or red into a green.
 
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Ben Cole
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Ok, I will say this is just my personal feeling.

In the case of Enrage I personally wouldn't then swap those dice back in - the way I read it was you're sacrificing those three dice from this round of combat to gain 3 energy - you're giving up defense for that, if you can then swap them back in you're not risking as much.

I understood that all dice for swapping must come from the available pool of 7 dice of each colour - anything that removes dice from the dice pool removes them from all use.
 
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David Reagan
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The FAQ indicates that you can only change the color of a die with a die you did not roll. One would think that this would also mean you cannot change the color of a die with a die you rolled and then removed.

However, I instinctively feel that the spirit of the rules is to keep the dice limit at 7 or below. By removing a die and then using the same die to change color, you are still down by one die and the dice limit (7 dice) will always be satisfied.

In conclusion:

1) Going literally by the FAQ, you cannot use a die that has been rolled and removed to change a color.
2) Going by the spirit of the rulebook (and assuming the FAQ was poorly written) you can use a die that has been rolled and removed to change a color.

Unfortunately, I don't think your going to get a satisfactory answer unless FFG makes further clarifications on the matter. This seems to be something that you'll have to houserule.
 
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Mill Master
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Yeah, I guess further clarification is probably needed... I normally just try to infer the rules from what has been already written.

I have not been able to find anything in the rules that supports statements like
Quote:
...anything that removes dice from the dice pool removes them from all use.


 
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Ben Cole
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arylblue wrote:
However, I instinctively feel that the spirit of the rules is to keep the dice limit at 7 or below. By removing a die and then using the same die to change color, you are still down by one die and the dice limit (7 dice) will always be satisfied.


However if you've removed that dice and gained something from it already - e.g. extra energy and then you recycle it aren't you effectively increasing the dice pool. I have 7 green dice available, I sacrifice three of these for energy thereby gaining energy but sacrificing defense. Howver if you then swap them back in aren't you effectively increasing the number of green dice (for this example) available to you in a round of combat?
 
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David Reagan
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Quote:
However if you've removed that dice and gained something from it already - e.g. extra energy and then you recycle it aren't you effectively increasing the dice pool. I have 7 green dice available, I sacrifice three of these for energy thereby gaining energy but sacrificing defense. Howver if you then swap them back in aren't you effectively increasing the number of green dice (for this example) available to you in a round of combat?


Good point.

From my previous response, conclusion 2 would be based on the fact that the writer of the FAQ was unaware of all the ramifications of the ruling "die you did not roll." The FAQ does have a couple of examples, but unfortunately not for the situation we're interested in.

I like you're reasoning and am now edging that the FAQ should be taken literally -- even though I've instinctively haven't been playing that way.
 
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Mill Master
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There are always only 7 green dice available to you. The only requirement for color changing is that you have not rolled the die you bring in to replace the die you are changing. You are creating a situation where dice in the dice pool are available for removal for one ability, and then also available to bring in for color changing abilities.
 
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Simon Lundström
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Yes, I agree. As far as I have understood the rules, your example:
MillMaster wrote:
Say I have rolled 7 red and 7 blue dice and re-rolled those I want to re-roll. Now I deal with end of re-roll abilities. I use Fear Ward to remove 2 blue 1's. I then use Lost Kris of Zedd's second ability to change 2 red 3's into blue 8's

is perfectly valid. This is part of the cool combination effects in this game.

I'd say the whole idea is to limit to 7 dice of each colour. If you are at a max of 7 green dice, and have abilities that first remove 3 green for energy, and then use another that adds 3 green, I'd say that's perfectly according to the rules, if nothing else is stated (as for the Doom Guard).
 
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Mill Master
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Now my next question is, do you think the game tracks the "rolled" state of a die once that die has been removed from the dice pool?

The FAQ says you can't change a die you have rolled, but I took this to mean you cant take a blue 1 sitting in your dice pool and change it to a red 8 due to a "change a blue 1 to a red 8" effect.

But do you think that the game remembers the "rolled" state of a die outside the dice pool?
 
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Ben Cole
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Not sure how you mean, the way I see the dice though is that once a die has been rolled for a round of combact that's it. It maintains that number, can be used once for spotting, can then be removed for whatever reason (placing a token for example - as long as it's not been 'spotted' to activate some other ability), can be changed by a 'spotting' ability or other ability and then it has had it's use for that round of combat. However my reading of the rules is that you can only do one of the above. You couldn't use anability to change the value of a die, then use the new value to activate a 'spotting' ability.

As ever though this all comes down to my interpretation of the rulse, he best suggestion I can give to get official answers is to go to the FFG WOWTBG forums and ask for a ruling there.
 
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Mill Master
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Good luck with that.. I have about 10 requests in with FFGs for about 4 different games and I have never got a response back...!

In any case... I don't have my game with me, but is there a rule that says you can't spot a dice, and then later remove it with another ability? (this is sort of along the same lines, but less useful as spotted dice are usually ones you want to keep)
 
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Ben Cole
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I've just accessed the PDF of the rulebook and looking at pages 27 & 28 found the following:

' "REMOVE DICE" Some card abilities instruct the active player to "remove" dice in order to achieve an effect. The player simply removes the dice from his dice pool (at the appropriate time indicated by the card) and sets them aside for the duration of his attack phase. Rules for dice that are removed are as follows:

*Removed dice may not be rolled again by abilities that add dice later in the character's Attack Phase. Removed dice effectively lower a player's maximum number of dice.

*Removed dice must always come from actual physical dice in a players pool. A player cannot remove "phantom dice" (that exceed the maximum seven dice of a color) to meet the 'remove' condition of an ability.

*A die that has been "spotted" may not be voluntarily removed, or vice versa.'

This can be found here: http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/PDF/wowrules.pdf

To me point 1 is saying that removed dice are then out of the reckoning for the combat - so they can't be used again for any reason, and point 3 answers your most recent question - no you can't spot a dice and then later remove it with an ability.
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Mill Master
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Yes, but changing the color of a die is neither rolling a die or adding too the pool, it is just changing the color and possibly number of an existing die in the pool. So point 1 does not seem to cover my original question. (I read that same bit of rules and that is really what spawned my questions, because that coupled with the FAQ saying that the only prohibition of color changing is that it can't be a die you rolled got this whole thing started)
 
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Ben Cole
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Again this is my reading of the rules, but if you've already got 7 green dice on the table you can't change another dice into green - you've already reached your limit. I personally see this is much the same thing, you work out your dice pool, then activate any remove dice abilities - although you're not actually rolling these dice they are still part of you dice pool, you've just decided to use them in a different way. I tend to count any dice used in this way as rolled even if I haven't physically rolled them. However I do see where you are coming from. Without ruling from Christian T. Petersen or Eric M. Lang or some such I think we culd discuss this back and forth for a year.

I think we're just going to agree to disagree on this one, as it's highly unlikely we'll ever play against each other it really isn't an issue, and I'm glad we've been able to have this converstaion in friendly terms. I'll follow the thread but unless anyone finds something that sheds new light on the situation I probably won't add anything else (famous last words). Enjoy your games of WoW.

 
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J Plath
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But I add something!
I think the interesting sentence in the rules is 'Removed dice effectively lower a player's maximum number of dice.'
This would mean after removing 2 of 7 dice, your new dice pool limit of this color is 5. So you can't change dice to exceed this limit. I think that is covered by the rules. Otherwise I played it always wrong before I read this discussion
 
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