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Subject: Specific cards: "We Will Bury You" rss

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Philip Thomas
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Background: This is a reference to a speech by the communist leader Khrushchev. He had a flair for the dramatic, once memorably banging his shoe on the rostrum (not sure if that was the same occasion as the "We Will Bury You" speech)

Effect: 4 Ops Soviet starred event. Decrease Defcon 1 level. If USA does not play UN Intervention as an event on his next action, gain 3 VPs.

Strategy: Generally speaking 4 Ops is better than 3 Vps, at least in the Mid War. If as USSR you want to decrease Defcon you might as well use the card for a coup. This can be a pain for the USA as it is unplayable at Defcon 2. Fortunately it is easy to Space Race.
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Mateusz Wilk
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I am pretty sure that the "shoe speech" (at the UN HQ) was not the same as the "We Will Bury You" speech (in Kremlin, AFAIR).
I've got a rules question for this card. If I play this card, as the US player, as the last card in Round 10, will the Soviet player still get the VPs? There will be no "next action round", when these points would typically be awarded, hence my question.
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Philip Thomas
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I think Soviets would get the VPs if played as last action round of round 10. The wording of the card is not "Award 3 VPs on the next action round" but "unless USA plays..."

Similarly if the game was ended by Wargames.
 
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nicola caroli
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This is controversial, but i think the Soviets would not get the VPs.
According to the ruling regarding the interaction between We Will Bury You and VP-gaining cards, the VPs are awarded when the card played is declared, and prior to resolution. But still you would need to get to the AR to do this, and before that , the VPs-awarding lingers in undetermined, "pending" status .

Furthermore, the "USA do not have a time machine" rule needs to be considered also. [This is the rules that states that a Defectors provoked in headline through card catchin do not cancel a card already resolved] Since the USA don't have a past-oriented time machine, i don't see why the soviets should have a forward moving time machine. In short, you can't get the VP if you're not there yet !

However, perhaps the Soviets DO have a time machine ! Remember, the complete quote is
"Whether you like it or not, history is on our side. We will bury you"
!
:eek:
 
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Mateusz Wilk
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Yeah, in my opinion they would not get the VPs, as the only immediate effect of this card is DEFCON lowering, the rest has to wait for the next AR, which won't happen.
As a lawyer would say "Impossibilium nulla est obligatio" (The impossible is no obligation), meaning that nobody should be penalized for not being able to comply with an impossible condition. Here, the Yankees would be prohibited from fulfilling the requirement by the rules of the game stating that this is the last AR ever in the game. I agree though, that the card wording yields place for both interpretations and it would be nice to get a definite ruling on this.
 
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Kevin Brown
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Philip Thomas wrote:
I think Soviets would get the VPs if played as last action round of round 10. The wording of the card is not "Award 3 VPs on the next action round" but "unless USA plays..."


Only if you played a second game with the same sides and the US player failed to play UN Intervention as his first play.
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marc lecours
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this is very interesting... a card that carries over to the next game. If you think that the card carries over to the next game, I don't see anything that states that the players must play the same sides to get the VP. If players switched sides, I think that the new Russian player should get the VPs even if he was the american in the last game.
 
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Philip Thomas
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No, the card doesn't say "On the next US action round, award 3 Vps to USSR if the US doesn't play UN intervention". It says "Award 3 VPs to USSR unless the USA plays UN intervention on his next action round".

If the game ends there is no next action round and the USSR gets 3 VPs.

Of course this is only possible if the USA played WWBY on the last round of turn 10. In most games Defcon will be 2 at that point so the USA won't have the option.

While having the effect carry over to the next game would be funny, it wouldn't be good for game balance!
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John McCoy
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The fact that the Soviets might play this as a headline event and lower DEFCON has to be taken into account when the USA player is picking his own headline events. For instance it'd be risky to play Duck and Cover or Lone Gunman if the whereabouts of this card are unknown.

Similarly, the Soviets have to be careful in their use of the Missile Envy event if there's a chance they'll be handed this card.
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Corn Runner
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I was the US. A situation came up where earlier in the turn I had played Nuclear Subs which says US actions do not affect defcon for the rest of the turn.

then I wanted to play "We Will bury you" for operations. "We Will Bury You" is a USSR event that decreases defon. Would playing this card be considered a US action and therefore be immune to reducing DEFCON?

 
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Philip Thomas
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No, USA actions means USA coups in battleground countries. Events on cards work as normal.
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Riku Riekkinen
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Quote:
I've got a rules question for this card. If I play this card, as the US player, as the last card in Round 10, will the Soviet player still get the VPs? There will be no "next action round", when these points would typically be awarded, hence my question.


No points awarded. http://talk.consimworld.com/WebX?14@791.DxWJeeeYQFE.28@.1dcf...
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I just bought the Deluxe version and played my first game today, as the US. My opponent played We will bury you as an event and we couldn't make sense of the text. It reads "Unless UN Intervention is played as an event on the US players next round, USSR gains 3 VP prior to any US VP award."

The text quoted earlier in this thread makes more sense. As the US, you hope you have UN Intervention to play next round, or the Soviet player will pick up 3 VP when your next card turns out to be something different.

But what US VP award are they talking about? Does the Soviet get 3 points next round? Or does he get them next time the US gets some VP, whenever that happens to be?

Thanks for your help!
 
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Kevin Brown
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Ubercat wrote:
I just bought the Deluxe version and played my first game today, as the US. My opponent played We will bury you as an event and we couldn't make sense of the text. It reads "Unless UN Intervention is played as an event on the US players next round, USSR gains 3 VP prior to any US VP award."

The text quoted earlier in this thread makes more sense. As the US, you hope you have UN Intervention to play next round, or the Soviet player will pick up 3 VP when your next card turns out to be something different.

But what US VP award are they talking about? Does the Soviet get 3 points next round? Or does he get them next time the US gets some VP, whenever that happens to be?

Thanks for your help!


If the US played a scoring card or some other card that would get them points, We Will Bury You would score before the effect of the US played card. Most of the time it won't matter, but if the game is close to an auto-win it could be a crucial distinction.
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Brent Tyler
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I bought the Deluxe Version also...does the card work for the entire round in that case? It saved the Soviet player to live another 2 rounds. He headlined the event and I had a bunch of scoring cards in my hand that i had to play that didn't get me enough pts to negate the three pts awarded. I guess it works until the end of the round, but it was our first time playing.

We made some mistakes during the game also. We used Defcon at the start of the round instead of the end of the round for lack of ops penalty, though caught that error when we went into mid-war. We also used the Chinese Civil War, while giving the Soviets the China card to begin with.

Neither of us had played before and the US ended up winning easily.
 
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Evgeny Reznikov
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The card gives the USSR 3 VP once if UN resolution is not played by the US in the very next US action round, and not 3 VP before every gain of VP by the US.

The strange language is there to clarify the the USSR 3 VP award happens first, so if the score is -18, and USSR plays WWBY, the US can't play a good scoring card to avoid losing - the USSR will get its 3 points first, and win the game.
This only matters when the USSR is at 17 VP or above.
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Nathan Cooley
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azuredarkness wrote:
This only matters when the USSR is at 17 VP or above.


Or when the US is close to winning, the -3 points being applied first may keep the US from an auto-win for the same reason.
 
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Evgeny Reznikov
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Not really.

Say the US is at +18 and holds a favorable scoring card. WWBY is in effect (no matter who played it).

If the scoring card is 5+ points to the US, the US wins whether we apply WWBY points first or not.
If the scoring card is less than 4 points, US doesn't win, whether we apply the -3 points first or just add everything together as usual.
 
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azuredarkness wrote:
Not really.

Say the US is at +18 and holds a favorable scoring card. WWBY is in effect (no matter who played it).

If the scoring card is 5+ points to the US, the US wins whether we apply WWBY points first or not.
If the scoring card is less than 4 points, US doesn't win, whether we apply the -3 points first or just add everything together as usual.


True, but the opposite is true too.

US sits at +17VP and WWBY is in effect.
Let's say that the US dominated Europe and playes the europe scoring card, which would give him 5vp.

First the 3vp to the USSR will take effect, setting the score on +14vp, then the Europe scoring gives the US 5vp, putting the score on +19vp.

Close, but not enough...

Cheers, Haring
 
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Evgeny Reznikov
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The same thing would have happened even without the "before any US VP award" language, as then both players would have gained VP simultaneously (for a net +2VP for the US).

The point that I was trying to make is that the way the card is written this way is to help the USSR in certain cases. If it were really written this way: "If USA does not play UN Intervention as an event on his next action, gain 3 VPs", the award would have been simultaneous.
 
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Adam H
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Sorry to dredge this up, but I thought it better to append this thread with a question rather than starting yet another WWBY thread.

I just wanted to clarify I was right in thinking that, if USSR is at 17+ points, and WWBY event is played, then the USSR will definitely win, as any score by the US will first push USSR above 20.

Am I right? And if so, is the game just forfeited to the USSR if this situation occurs?

 
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Daniel Hogetoorn
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bonnieprince wrote:
Sorry to dredge this up, but I thought it better to append this thread with a question rather than starting yet another WWBY thread.

I just wanted to clarify I was right in thinking that, if USSR is at 17+ points, and WWBY event is played, then the USSR will definitely win, as any score by the US will first push USSR above 20.

Am I right? And if so, is the game just forfeited to the USSR if this situation occurs?



Correct, unless of course:

- US plays UN Intervention as an event; or
- USSR played WWBY at DEFCON 2.

But I think you figured that out already ;-)
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Evgeny Reznikov
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Another possible situation is the US playing WWBY on their last action round. Since the award is given before the next US action, the US would have the headline play to possibly play a point gaining card and prevent the autovictory.
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Jim Butler
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azuredarkness wrote:
The card gives the USSR 3 VP once if UN resolution is not played by the US in the very next US action round, and not 3 VP before every gain of VP by the US.

The strange language is there to clarify the the USSR 3 VP award happens first, so if the score is -18, and USSR plays WWBY, the US can't play a good scoring card to avoid losing - the USSR will get its 3 points first, and win the game.
This only matters when the USSR is at 17 VP or above.


Thanks for the clarification. We just had a game with this exact scenario. USSR at 17 VP's, and played WWBY. US played Europe scoring, which would have netted 5 VP's. We decided that WWBY scored first, and USSR won.
 
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Joe Bloggs
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I feel like I should point out it's highly likely Khrushchev never actually banged his shoe during any speech. Wikipedia has an article about this showing the one photo of Khrushchev and a shoe is a crude fake. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoe-banging_incident)

But the We Will Bury You line was definitely unrelated to that.
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