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World War II: Barbarossa to Berlin» Forums » Strategy

Subject: German Strategy rss

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Jason Johns
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Hey guys, How about some German strategy? My friend and I have played several times in a row alternating powers and Germany comes out poorly most times. I will say that we tend to lose steam pretty early. So, more attacking and less worrying about full strenght armies is probably something that we should do.

As the Russian, I want to play one reinf and 2 or 3 rp cards per turn. so, I figure as the German, one should try hard to stop this. Force the Russian to react.

Maximizing stacks (ie. not stacking Romanians and Germans, moving stacks together to allow for a single activation moving several units) and other things like this are important.

Historically, the Germans surrounded large swathes of Russians. Not sure if you can do that here, but I sure try!

Africa appears to be hopeless to me as the German. No sense in wasting any effort there. Has anyone thought of or implemented some type of "free" Axis activation in Africa? Just wondering.

Anyway, any other advice is appreciated.

Thanks,
Jason
 
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Devon Harmon
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Jay Richardson has some good hints here:

http://boardgamegeek.com/article/1753824#1753824

User Hank_hill turned me onto a sweet strategy using the Panzer Group Guderian card, which allows the 2nd Panzer LCU a second attack. Here's how it works: Play Panzer Group Guderian (a yellow event), attack (and hopefully make retreat) some enemy units. Advance the 2nd Pz LCU adjacent to the just retreated units and attack again. As long as 1 LF is achieved, all the retreated units are eliminated (and they add 0 CF to the combat).

As far as North Africa, you can make headway there, but you need the cards to do so. It is even easier if the Allied player lacks the proper cards to respond in North Africa. Somewhere there is a thread where user Chester Ogborn (Sleestack avatar) talks about this, but I can't find it to link it. I usually wait until Winter of 41 to launch a North African offensive, as I'm not likely to make much progress in the SU on that turn.
 
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Jason Johns
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Devon Harmon wrote:
As far as North Africa, you can make headway there, but you need the cards to do so. It is even easier if the Allied player lacks the proper cards to respond in North Africa. Somewhere there is a thread where user Chester Ogborn (Sleestack avatar) talks about this, but I can't find it to link it. I usually wait until Winter of 41 to launch a North African offensive, as I'm not likely to make much progress in the SU on that turn.


So, you usually do Barbarossa rather than VPP? Hmmm. Thanks,

Jason
 
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Bart Grubben
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As the Germans you should push very, very hard hard indeed in 1941. Always open with Barbarossa, play every cards for ops points (with the exception of Guderian, OKH, Nordlicht and Typhoon) and don't waste resources on Africa. Don' bother about having units OOS at some point during your first few turns: I would even say that if you don't have a unit (usually some advancing panzer spearhead) OOS at leat once or twice in 1941 you're not trying hard enough. This strategy will get you into Moscow most of the times and in all probability a lot further (Leningrad, Kharkov, even Stalingrad can be yours).

In the winter of 1941/42 rebuild your forces and consider a push in Africa, especially if the Allies used Desert Army for its ops points during the preceding autumn (they will hardly have time to play events and replacements against a well excecuted German offensive). Somewhere in 1942 you will have to make a decision: if everything went your way and you are on the verge of automatic victory, make a second but more focussed attack in the spring/ summer 1942 to deal the final blow. If you think the AV is out of reach, confine yourself to more limited attacks to improve your defensive position to counter the Russian steamroller that will inevitably get into motion somewhere in 1943.

Hope this helps.
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Troy Adlington
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Devon Harmon wrote:
Jay Richardson has some good hints here:

http://boardgamegeek.com/article/1753824#1753824

User Hank_hill turned me onto a sweet strategy using the Panzer Group Guderian card, which allows the 2nd Panzer LCU a second attack. Here's how it works: Play Panzer Group Guderian (a yellow event), attack (and hopefully make retreat) some enemy units. Advance the 2nd Pz LCU adjacent to the just retreated units and attack again. As long as 1 LF is achieved, all the retreated units are eliminated (and they add 0 CF to the combat).

As far as North Africa, you can make headway there, but you need the cards to do so. It is even easier if the Allied player lacks the proper cards to respond in North Africa. Somewhere there is a thread where user Chester Ogborn (Sleestack avatar) talks about this, but I can't find it to link it. I usually wait until Winter of 41 to launch a North African offensive, as I'm not likely to make much progress in the SU on that turn.


Actualy this 'trick' is illegal I just checked on Consimworld.

Quote:

No-the second Guderian attack is not a continuation of the first attack, it is a separate attack, so the units are not eliminated simply by inflicting a loss. (The same is true for Patton.)

Ted
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Devon Harmon
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Quote:
No-the second Guderian attack is not a continuation of the first attack, it is a separate attack, so the units are not eliminated simply by inflicting a loss. (The same is true for Patton.)

Ted


I guess I don't follow his logic here. The rules as written state: "If defending units retreat into a space which is attacked later in the same Action Round(emphasis added), the units which already retreated do not add their Combat Strength to the combat against this space. In addition, if a Loss Number of at least 1 is achieved, the already retreated units are immediately eliminated and do not count towards fulfilling the loss number." (11.45). Panzergruppe Guderian states, in pertinant part: "2nd Pz Army may make a second attack this round(emphasis added) after all combats have been completed.

The clarifications on page 19 of Ver 1.3 of the rules specifically mention the second attack generated by this card, but state nothing about how it does not conform to the rules as written. It would seem to me that Ted should re-write the rules again, if this is his intented way the card should work, because I submit that the rules as written support the notion that the second attack granted by Guderian will eliminate retreated units, so long as a Loss Factor of 1 is achieved. I don't see where Ted's distinction of it being a second attack and not a continuation of the first attack makes any difference, as the rules look to whether or not the attacks happen in the same action round. The card plainly states that the second attack happens in the same action round.

I don't want sound rules-lawyerish, but I guess it is too late for that. It is Ted's game and the rules should work how he wants them to. I just think when something functions in contravention of the rules as written, it should be specifically spelled out, and should not require one to pour through 13,000+ posts to obtain clarification, especially in a later edition of a game that has already been played for years. Surely this has come up in a tournament?

I think I'm just frustrated in that I thought I really knew this game and how the rules worked, and know I am confronted with this ruling that sets up some dissonance with my understanding. Perhaps it is time for me to navigate the depths of the consimworld thread and see if there are other rulings contrary to the rules as written?

EDIT: I tried to past a query to Ted on consimworld, but as I am not a member there I have to wait for approval before I can post there. I'll update when I eventually past and hopefully receive an answer.
 
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Troy Adlington
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I guess the thinking is that the 2nd Panzer (or US 3rd Army) is effectively getting a second combat phase. Not a sub-phase of the first, make sense?
 
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Devon Harmon
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Troymk1 wrote:
I guess the thinking is that the 2nd Panzer (or US 3rd Army) is effectively getting a second combat phase. Not a sub-phase of the first, make sense?


Yes, that's about all that I can think of that makes sense. Don't get me wrong, I completely agree with the ruling, I just didn't understand the logic behind it. I want to understand the ruling with refernce to the rules and card as written, so that when someone tries it against me, I am armed with more than, "Ted says you can't. I read it on the internet."

Allowing the 2nd Pz to auto-kill retreated units with the second attack was always a bit too powerful.

Aside: I still have not been approved to post on Consimworld, so I sent Ted a geek mail.
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Jason Johns
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Ok, so the German took a look at the German advice here at BGG. We had already started, so he was a bit behind. Both of us are pretty passive Germans. Anyway, he just went with the attack, attack, attack mentality. If there was a doubt about what to do (ie. event or something else) he just attacked and/or moved up to prepare to attack. It has worked, though he has had ATROCIOUS luck. 1 v 6 type stuff. Ugly.

So, in our next game, where I'm the Germans, I'll probably go with a modified version of the advice. I think that Jay's advice was to constantly attack. I can see RPs being useful once in a while and to be honest there are some "have to" events for the Germans to play.

I tend to also think right from the beginning that I'll just go Totaler Krieg. I probably should try to win the other way. Oh well.

Thanks for the chat.

Jason
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Devon Harmon
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iamspamus wrote:
I tend to also think right from the beginning that I'll just go Totaler Krieg. I probably should try to win the other way. Oh well.


Jason


I think that you should keep an open mind, and an adaptable strategy. I usually tell myself that I'm not going to attack Leningrad, but then the opportunity presents itself, so I do it (and always wind up regretting it).

I usually say that I'm not going to mess around with North Africa, but then I get the cards, winter rolls around, next thing you know I'm attacking Tobruk. Sometimes it works out.

I agree that RPs are nice, if you only attack, attack, attack, you won't last through Totaler Kreig if you don't auto-victory. There are some events that I will probably play too, like OKH COnference and Hitler Declares war. I don't like it when the allies declare war; it sticks me with a 2 Ops card I can't get rid of, and it denies me a VP.
 
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Jason Johns
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Devon Harmon wrote:
iamspamus wrote:
I tend to also think right from the beginning that I'll just go Totaler Krieg. I probably should try to win the other way. Oh well.


Jason


I think that you should keep an open mind, and an adaptable strategy. I usually tell myself that I'm not going to attack Leningrad, but then the opportunity presents itself, so I do it (and always wind up regretting it).

I usually say that I'm not going to mess around with North Africa, but then I get the cards, winter rolls around, next thing you know I'm attacking Tobruk. Sometimes it works out.

I agree that RPs are nice, if you only attack, attack, attack, you won't last through Totaler Kreig if you don't auto-victory. There are some events that I will probably play too, like OKH COnference and Hitler Declares war. I don't like it when the allies declare war; it sticks me with a 2 Ops card I can't get rid of, and it denies me a VP.


Yeah, I meant that we neede to be more aggressive as the Germans. I'll try that next time.

We have had a different result with Leningrad. It has fallen 4 or 5 of 7 times or so and one of those times the card didn't come out til late. We surround it and then with no reinf or rps (cause in limited supply) it dies...eventually.

Ciao!
Jason
 
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Devon Harmon
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iamspamus wrote:

We have had a different result with Leningrad. It has fallen 4 or 5 of 7 times or so and one of those times the card didn't come out til late. We surround it and then with no reinf or rps (cause in limited supply) it dies...eventually.


Crap, there's yet another thing I have been playing wrong. I missed the part about a space needing to be in full supply to receive reinforcements or replacement LCU's. I'm likely to be wrong on this, but you can still spend RPs to unflip a unit that is only in limited supply, correct?

Now to track down that other thread where I was giving advice to stay away from Leningrad.
 
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Jason Johns
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Yep, RPs and Reinf say to use the same line. It must be in FULL SUPPLY. Leningrad can and should be taken.

Jason
 
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Devon Harmon
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iamspamus wrote:
Yep, RPs and Reinf say to use the same line. It must be in FULL SUPPLY.


The rules for recreating LCUs (14.3) say that they may be placed in their home country as reinforcements, with a reference to 7.62. But what I'm referring to is spending a replacement point to replace a step for an on-map unit (14.1). As near as I can tell, this can be done with units in limited supply. The effects of limited supply (13.3) don't mention any restriction on receiving replacement steps, whereas the effects of Out of Supply (13.4), it specefically mentions that OOS units may not receive replacement steps.

So if Leningrad is only in limited supply, reduced units located there can receive replacement steps during the replacement phase.

Correct?
 
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Kim Helsted
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Devon Harmon wrote:
iamspamus wrote:
Yep, RPs and Reinf say to use the same line. It must be in FULL SUPPLY.


So if Leningrad is only in limited supply, reduced units located there can receive replacement steps during the replacement phase.

Correct?


Yes. Correct. How else would you ever flip your German and Italien units in Africa. (Without playing Hercules, of course)
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