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Subject: Fair vs. Unfair, Sore-Loser, and two styles of Quitting rss

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David Gardner
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In groups and situations like this, I think it's helpful to set what I'll call "the rules for the meta-game." The meta-game is the game around the game, and some games -- and some groups -- virtually demand that it be discussed and often fixed.

So if I had a regular group that plays like this, I would ensure we discussed and ALL agree to, ahead of time:

*"Table talk": Are you allowed to point out moves, or better moves, during someone ELSE's turn... or absolutely not?

*Deal-making and Collusion: Are you allowed to make deals during the game, and if so, are you bound to honor them, or not? And is there "teaming up," and again, if so, are you bound to honor that?

It sounds to me like you all should be playing Diplomacy, anyway. Actually, it seems to me that you brought a Diplomacy mindset to, of all things, Carcassonne!

To close, this concept of the meta-game is one that is rarely spoken to or fixed in many games' rules. But for many games, and many groups, it can be critical to ethical play and true enjoyment to ensure you have a unanimously agreed upon meta-game standard. --DG
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Justin Heimburger
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I think it's important to note that the rules of the game specifically state that tiles drawn should be shown to the entire group for discussion, and I've heard of lots of examples of players working together to exclude others. I don't think it's cheating or underhanded, especially since C & D did it in plain view without secrecy.

It's a shame the way player B threw the game, tossing you under the bus in the process, but I think I'd also be upset at someone who started to play like you did.
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F H
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Would I have played tile to help two other players? Possibly with the family, but never with the lunchtime crowd. That is just "wrong" in a social contract kind of way.

Calling you a sore loser because you played into the corner. Hmmm. Seems wrong to me. Why would they do that, it's certainly not going to make anyone happy. That was a social mistake on their part. Your supposed to be friends.

Playing the kingmaker is a serious unbalancing thing and neccesaily means you making the game unbalanced for other players. Of the two options, playing into the corner would have been better than playing kingmaker.

The best thing would have been to suck it up and just play-to-win right up to the end. Then discuss it afterwards.

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Tim Rogers
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It really burns me up when people decide just because they're losing, they'll ruin the game for somebody (or everybody) else. I mean, why not just play the best you can, and if you do decide to influence individual players, why not try to hurt the players in the lead to at least encourage a tight/interesting finish. Although, even this can bother me, as I've often been in the lead when someone takes on this strategy soblue.

Anyways, our group generally avoids these sorts of "politics", by heavily discouraging deal-making in any of our games. This is usually achieved through an understanding that players shouldn't be advising other players during their turn, nor encouraging or discouraging particular actions just because it relates to their strategy for victory. Although newbies or non-gamers are often given advice, this is typically un-biased and only given because they may not be aware of the rules/strategies relevant to the game.

I completely sympathize and can tell you I would have felt the exact same way if I were in your shoes. I'm not sure if I would have reacted in the same way, but I probably would have said something to the effect that I felt that the game was ruined. Here's hoping your future Carc sesssions are less heated!
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Jason Cookingham
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SledgeFist wrote:
I'm of the opinion that if you're going to quit a game, it should be as transparent as possible.
\

The king-maker was wrong, but your passive-aggressive protest wasn't very nice either.

You should have been the "better man" and withdrew to let those two battle it out.

If you are going to quit, then it should be an actual quiting.. not a lingering bad mood within the game.

Plus, it is Carcassonne.. it isn't a long game. It is not worth getting this upset about. Stick your tongue out at the game maker and be mean to him in the next game. heh.

All imo, of course.
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Simon Lundström
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Hard to say. The kingmaker was the one ruining the game and although I find your gaming pretty bad aswell, I can't imagine a fair reason for C to be annoyed at that sort of "I don't care anyway" play – after all, it's EXACTLY the kind of game B played - with the slight difference that his play benefitted C. If C truly thought you were ruining the game by not playing seriously - then he should by all means be as annoyed at the way B played, because he didn't play seriously either.

The fact that C didn't, but was only annoyed at your play, is bluntly spoken a "Hey, you're playing inseriously, and that's only OK with me if you benefit me!". Like a guy in Monopoly who doesn't care if HE gets off the hook for walking on Boardwalk, but gets angry when other players get off the hook.

I can get annoyed at stupid bad luck with tile drawing in Carcassone, and I do get annoyed when people kingmake, so although I don't think it's good gaming, I can still sympathize with both A and B. It's C that's gets on my nerves. If it was OK with him that B handed him the game, he should by all means be OK with you giving up but in a different manner. After all, you're still playing the game.
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Jeb Adams
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cookinjr wrote:
SledgeFist wrote:
I'm of the opinion that if you're going to quit a game, it should be as transparent as possible.
\

The king-maker was wrong, but your passive-aggressive protest wasn't very nice either.

You should have been the "better man" and withdrew to let those two battle it out.

If you are going to quit, then it should be an actual quiting.. not a lingering bad mood within the game.

Plus, it is Carcassonne.. it isn't a long game. It is not worth getting this upset about. Stick your tongue out at the game maker and be mean to him in the next game. heh.

All imo, of course.
++

This is how I feel as well. If you want to quit, just leave the table--stop drawing cards and playing the corner or whatever--that's just a waste of everyone's time.

I definitely think you should have some sort of team meeting to leverage synergies and get the stick out your playmate's ass.
 
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Chad Ellis
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My personal take is that I either play or I don't. If I'm sufficiently upset by another player's behavior that I no longer want to play, I'll either quit outright or else soldier on, depending on the circumstances. If I'm just being blown out but am not upset, I'll just try to catch up as much as I possibly can -- lowering the bar of what I can consider a victory from that point.
 
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Confusion Under Fire
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Games for me are played to be enjoyed, a little social interaction and to work the little grey brain cells, when it becomes a game of loathing then its time to find other like minded players to game with or change the game. Carcassonne is a "nice little game" I think you should try Mall of Horror plenty of backstabbing, deceit and deception, but it is still fun.
 
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tim
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Suck it up and move on. You can't justify your unsportsmanlike behavior based on someones else. If someone wants to concede the win and quit thats fine but rarely will I play a game again with any one that walks away from the table. How important was this one game to you? Is it worth not playing with these people again? Perhaps you should find some online game to play where you don't have to socially interact with people? shake
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James Moss
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Personally I would have gone for the concede and hand-shake combo.
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Damien Browne
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Four players.
2 are colluding
1 is kingmaking
1 is game spoiling.

Who's really the offender in this group?

Exactly.
 
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Stephen Stewart
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THIS should be on a Soap Opera...arrrhkiss -> robot (spurned lover)

I'm prefacing this to say I play (not behave...entirely) in the fashion as PLAYER A.

SledgeFist wrote:
They're looking to share 20+ points between them and not let A and B get in... control of the farm (C has 2 on it, D has 1 and is close to a second).

Player B was naturally pissed off due to what he labeled "collusion".


B should be concerned on losing the potential farmer points. C & D are formulating a strategy (more on C later )...no real need to get pissed here...GET THE LEADER mentality at work...

1. C has present control of potential farming community. In all likelihood, D won't be able to TIE for points after much of remainder of game is spent blocking B.


Quote:
Before the agreement, C asked the group if deals were allowed. Player A stated that there is no Carcassonne rule AGAINST deal-making, Player B said he thinks deals should not be allowed. C and D make the deal anyway


C asking if deals are allowed should throw up FLAGS, especially since deals were not historically played with this group...(assumption) AND he makes the deal even when B objects...

B says hell no, since the apparent deal making will affect him.

A = rules lawyer..."it doesn't say you can't steal your opponents pieces off the board" PLAY WITH WHAT THE RULES ALLOW not disallow. I detest this train of thought.


Quote:
Player B draws a tile, Player A sees the tile and how it can be used to set up a good block on the citadel city, but Player A says nothing because tile-placement discussing had been forbidden in earlier games ... Also, this is the largest city on the board, so Player B gets the King-of-Town 10 point bonus (previously held by Player A). So in effect, Player A gets -10, Player B gets +10, Player C and D get +48 and their tokens, because Player B has given up on the game. We're about 60% through the game when this occurs.

Well, I'm Player A, and I'm pissed.


As well you should be, you got screwed plain and simple. It happens when you play multiplayer games. No one likes getting the SHAFT.

Quote:

At this point, I have decided that I'm not playing anymore, but I don't quit the game and take my pieces off the board. Instead, when it's my turn, I pick a tile and immediately lay it on a spot on a corner of the board that has no impact on anyone.


I wish you included player points here...it might shed a little light BUT
40% of game remains...JUST OVER HALF...it's too early to toss in the towel.

Continue on, keep spirits up.

Toss tiles in corner when you only have a meaningless amount of turns left. IF they object, then go into zombieanalysis/paralysis moderobot and drag game out...

Quote:

Three turns later, Player C states that I'm ruining the game by not playing seriously. I state my opinion that the game has already been ruined by Player B quitting and pretty much handing C and D the game and that I can no longer compete, but I haven't quit. Player C calls me a sore loser and states that I'm over-reacting.


2. HMM, player C again eh? Calls you out? Let me guess C is leading at this point?

Quote:

it was ruined because everyone else benefited from it. I said that everyone at this table would be complaining just as much as me if they were in my shoes (ESPECIALLY Player C who complains when anything negative goes against him in the game). Also, Player C and D both deny that they are not colluding or working as a team, because so far, D still has not tied C to share the farm that they were discussing blocking B out of. I left the table and got some fresh air.


3. Do you notice the actions of C, historical and present game? Think about it... (at this point D is Pinnochio C is Gepetto (puppet master for you non-Disney fans).

Quote:
No one broke any rules, so nobody cheated... because the game wasn't over and theoretically I could catch up (realistically, no way).

Broken rules...unwritten YES.

If you have a chance, then catch up and win. IF YOU WIN IN THIS MANNER YOU HAVE BEATEN THE "CHEATS"

Quote:
...playing monopoly...


What the HELL FOR?

Quote:

And a sore loser? SORE LOSER? If anyone is a sore loser in the above game, I'd say it's Player B, but I think that's kind of a stretch and wouldn't label him as such...

(btw, I'm only a sore loser when there is something to be sore about.
and if I'm considered a sore loser for complaining, then I guess I'm a sore loser. But I think most people on these forums would be considered sore losers as well.)

So.... opinions?


WRONG, it's not B, it's C. WHY? Because you robbed him of his truimphant victory gloating when he laid down a diabolical plan and win the game. By A and B quitting at this point a bitter taste came into C's mouth. i.e. he got caught. He didn't take into account B's potential blow up when he was "teamed up" against.

You wouldn't label B as a sore loser?! Then don't contradict yourself...he either is or isn't.

Complaining doesn't make you a sore loser, especially, if the player who ends up winning is accusing you and had benefitted by the action involved. Cheats will divert attention from themselves easily by labeling the complaining loser, in this case A, a SORE ONE.

I'd seriously consider actions taken by C in this game. Reread your own submission and it seems to point directly at C as the instigator, puppeteer, and pointer of fingers.



B simply conceded, although, completing the building for them was a BIT extreme. I'd let them complete it on their own. Their collusion didn't need help. D is the sad victim that was given a carrot dangled in front of him and then led off a cliff... A likes to play a competitive game without the cutting of throats.

IF you should happen to play with C again...
PLAY TEAMS A&B vs C&D

PROBLEM SOLVED
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norman rule
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You all pretty much behaved like spoiled children.

C insisted on no deals one game, then "forgot" about it when it was convenient.

B giving in and saying "what's the use?" and throwing the game.

You sulking in the corner and pouting.

You can defend your actions all you want by saying you didn't adversely affect the play of the game, but you intentionally affected the MOOD of the game.

Good players are defined not by how they win, but by how they lose.

If you can have six people gang up on you to make sure you lose and you still manage to smile at the end of the game, then you're a good player and you're welcome at my table any time. But if all you can do is whine about how unfair things are and bemoan the fact that everybody is picking on you, then you're going to quickly run out of people to play with.

Oh.... and regarding your comment about the runner: ""Because I was tripped and I could not catch up.", are they a sore loser?"

I wouldn't call them a sore loser. I would call them a poor sportsman. The race is not over till you cross the finish line. A good finish time for a marathon is under 3 hours. Some people take 8 hours (or longer) to finish. Some people are limping and need assistance. Many have bloody feet. But they give it their entire effort from start to finish. Walking to the finish line just because you can't win isn't even an option.

That's how I see it.... take it or leave it as you wish.
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tim
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The first time I got out my new game of Settlers after only having played a couple times the other 3 players ganged up on me. 1 player knew how to play, one player had played a long time ago and one player was new. Me, I had played 2 games of Seafarers and a few times on my xbox360. I was doing pretty good and had a nice lead I should have been able to win in just a couple more turns. The other 3 players joined forces for the express purpose of preventing my win. Their mantra was its for the good of the Republic, the Republic being the 3 of them. The game lasted another 45 minutes and I just barely squeeked out a win despite some questionable collusion on their parts. While they technically followed the rules, showing each other your cards to plan trades that don't help you to best block another player has got to be against some rule. I never gave up and that game is infamous now. I can lose 1000 times but I can always say remember the night you guys ganged up on me and I still won?

That my friends is priceless.
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Kristian
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My question is: why didn't you start building a mega-city with player C and the another city with player D? Carcassonne isn't fun until you get into the nasty team-projects and diplomacy; you just have to be smart enough to spin it your way. There's nothing funner than being able to have a city-alliance with every player, and then while each of them score for only one city you score three, four, or five. That's what Carc is really about.

That said, it should be clearly stated in the beginning of the game that such play is okay. Just because you have the right to play that way in the rules doesn't mean that it's the right thing to do. If even one player doesn't want to play that way, it's better to have a less-fun game than a fight. The next time you don't have to include them.
Kristian
 
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