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Subject: Best to play rounding up or down? rss

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UA Darth
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I remember reading here about how the game originally had you round down when taking back money while the newer version, through mistakes, has you rounding up. Does anyone find much of a difference either way? Which way is preferred, if any?

Thanks!
 
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Evan Stegman
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I started playing rounding down what you get back (e.g., get back 1 on a bid of 3) but then ran across people that insisted you round up.

After playing both ways, I now generally round up what you get back to keep more money in players hands to make the auctions a bit more lively.
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Paul Sauberer
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The original version (by Ravensburger/Schmid) had you round up the oney you take back. The latest version of the rules by Uberplay has you round down the money you get back.

As with the previous poster, I prefer rounding up the money coming back, especially is you are also playing with the latest rule that bids have to be more than the preceding bid, not just match it.

The new rules suck money out of the game at an alarming rate (particularly with 6 players) turning a great filler into a merely good one IMO.
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Driver 8
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I don't think it really matters as long as play is consistent. If you round up, there will be more money and bids will go higher (or more money will be left over at the end). If you round down, there will be less money and bids will be lower. It all averages out in the end so I don't see that it would 'break' the game or anything.
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UA Darth
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Alrighty, thanks. The older version had rounding down.. I just got the newer one and it says to round up. Just making sure we weren't missing some balance that the original had!
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When I played a couple of sessions of this, we rounded up the $$ we got back. I guess we either played it wrong, or the game owner (or perhaps the game owner was in another group so it was someone else) who just called the house rule on the Uberplay edition (IIRC).

Either way, it did make things more lively IMO. Ppl were VERY willing to back out on $1 since it meant a free property card. This led me to constantly bid in odd increments so that the next +1 bid would cause the other player to lose an extra $1 more than me
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Daniel Corban
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Driver 8 wrote:
I don't think it really matters as long as play is consistent. If you round up, there will be more money and bids will go higher (or more money will be left over at the end). If you round down, there will be less money and bids will be lower. It all averages out in the end so I don't see that it would 'break' the game or anything.


If you only play with 3 or 4 players, yes, I can see how there would be little difference. Once you get 5 or 6 players, the 5th or 6th player to bid will be screwed. By the time it gets to them, the bid will likely be 5 or 6, which means they are very likely to win the auction and spend a large amount of their money if they bid. This would likely result in the 5th/6th player always passing without thought.
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John W
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I think there is one mathematical aspect that has been ignored with the round-up/round-down discussions here.

When you round-down the money you have to pay, you are actually increasing the disparity/penalty between the winning bidder and the 2nd-highest bidder.
So if the winning bid is 8, the 2nd-highest bidder only pays 3. This artificially exaggerates the $$$ difference, solely through rules interpretation.

I prefer a game where the 2nd-highest bidder in that example would pay 4, and the winner 8. It "feels" like it better approximates the transaction and is a fairer dynamic.

There is already such a huge savings difference in high-auctions between winner and 2nd-highest, I think it's a mistake to further increase that disparity (round-down also makes the bids higher, further exaggerating the effect).

In round-down games, I'd be actively trying to bid up the auction and try to get some sucker to always bid one more than me.
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Daniel Fish
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I think that increasing the disparity between 2nd and 1st is a good thing. To me, the fact that the person who bids second highest gets the best deal is one of the most interesting aspects of the game. Much more challenging to position yourself to bid second highest than 1st highest.

I also play rounding UP the amount of $ going back to the player. I also dole out all of the money no matter how many players I am playing with. I think the game is much more interesting with more money in the auctions. The amount of money people have left in coins at the end of the game has yet to ever determine the game winner, so I see no harm in it.
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Lukas Wernig
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Just don't bid odd numbers. at least that is what i do now, as i would get back the same amount of money when bidding e.g. 7 or 8.
 
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Andrea Bampi
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I think it's worth noting that the latest 2015 Iello french/german edition features a brand new rephrasing of the rule, fully embracing the "pro-bidder" interpretation (the one disregarding the original Dorra idea).

"...erhält er die Hälfte der Münzen seines Gebots dieser Runde zurück (es wird aufgerundet)" meaning "...he (the bidder) gets back half of his bid (rounded UP)"

I think it's a deliberate choice, this time...
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Ender Wiggins
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RickNash wrote:
I think it's worth noting that the latest 2015 Iello french/german edition features a brand new rephrasing of the rule, fully embracing the "pro-bidder" interpretation (the one disregarding the original Dorra idea).

"...erhält er die Hälfte der Münzen seines Gebots dieser Runde zurück (es wird aufgerundet)" meaning "...he (the bidder) gets back half of his bid (rounded UP)"

I think it's a deliberate choice, this time...

According to a recent post (link) from an Iello representative, it seems that in opting for the round UP rule, Iello was under the impression that they were following the designer Stefan Dorra's preference, or at least they thought he'd proofread these new rules. However in 2007 Dorra stated his preference for the round DOWN rule quite clearly (link), unless he's since changed his opinion.

A complete history of how the rounding rule has changed in different editions can be found here:

https://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/21974828#21974828
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Andrea Bampi
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Messy cool
The most important thing, anyway, is that the game is perfectly playable with both versions. Different game styles, different flavours. I frankly think that the next time they should simply offer the two alternatives (adjusting the starting coins amounts) and let the players choose. It's becoming pointless to investigate further about what Dorra wanted/thought originally and if he did change his mind meanwhile, IMHO.
 
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Daniel Corban
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I played a few times with six players using the printed rounding up rule. The game felt broken. Players five and six in the bidding order had a huge disincentive to bid at all. I don't enjoy the sort of luck in an auction game.
 
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Andrea Bampi
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dcorban wrote:
I played a few times with six players using the printed rounding up rule. The game felt broken. Players five and six in the bidding order had a huge disincentive to bid at all. I don't enjoy the sort of luck in an auction game.


Explain please...
 
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james lima
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If you round up the money that you get back, the person who just won the previous bid gets to essentially pass for free on the next auction (that or win the next auction for $1 and be back in the same position - so even better). That seems unfair, specially in a 5-6 player game where it's pretty likely someone will have passed before it gets back around.
 
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Andrea Bampi
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nwoninja wrote:
If you round up the money that you get back, the person who just won the previous bid gets to essentially pass for free on the next auction (that or win the next auction for $1 and be back in the same position - so even better). That seems unfair, specially in a 5-6 player game where it's pretty likely someone will have passed before it gets back around.


Since the rule is the same for all players, I really don't see where the "unfairness" lies.. nor the "luck" factor, except for the initial random starting player. We never play less than N games with N=number of players, anyway.
I really think it's just a matter of taste - surely the rule doesn't BREAK anything
 
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Paul McKinney
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I've played a lot both ways and really do prefer getting back change rounded up. Even when getting back a bit more money than if things were rounded down I still feel money is very tight in the bidding phase and still provides plenty of tension. For a game this light and often played with new players the rounding down seems a bit of an unnecessary piece of bitterness and takes away a bit from the focus of just bidding on the properties and not having to think about rounding concerns IMO.
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Daniel Corban
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It's not broken to have players five and six consistently forced to pass in every single auction? To have the first player always able to effectively bid twice? I disagree.

It's an auction game. When 1/3 of the players cannot participate even when everyone before them makes the minimum possible bids, both the "auction" and the "game" cease to exist for those players.
 
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Andrea Bampi
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dcorban wrote:
It's not broken to have players five and six consistently forced to pass in every single auction? To have the first player always able to effectively bid twice? I disagree.

It's an auction game. When 1/3 of the players cannot participate even when everyone before them makes the minimum possible bids, both the "auction" and the "game" cease to exist for those players.


Your assumptions are simply wrong. You played that way, this doesn't mean everyone does.
I played HUNDREDS of For Sale games with the "round up" rule, and:
- players five and six definitely CAN participate in auctions. Of course they probably can't in later rounds, but in the first rounds I usually participate raising my bid (for the best properties, of course)
- I don't get the "first player alwyas able to bid twice" part. If I understand what you mean, I can assure you that "experienced" players usually bid high when it's the right time to do so, so it happens quite often that the first player is unable (entirely or virtually) to raise a second time after his first bid...
 
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Daniel Corban
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RickNash wrote:

I played HUNDREDS of For Sale games with the "round up" rule


Okay, and millions of people play Monopoly without auctions and give free money on the parking space. Just because they always play with objectively worse rules than intended doesn't make it a wise choice.

This game is mega-ultra-super-light filler usually played with casuals. There is no reason not to just play by the rules that make the game more fun for everyone.
 
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Andrea Bampi
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dcorban wrote:
RickNash wrote:

I played HUNDREDS of For Sale games with the "round up" rule


Okay, and millions of people play Monopoly without auctions and give free money on the parking space. Just because they always play with objectively worse rules than intended doesn't make it a wise choice.

This game is mega-ultra-super-light filler usually played with casuals. There is no reason not to just play by the rules that make the game more fun for everyone.


You really don't seem to understand. I'm not trying to convince you that "rounding up" is better. Your choice. But you definitely can't state the opposite. Your use of the word "objectively" is OBJECTIVELY very wrong.
I tried the game with the "original" rule too (after discovering this controversy), but my group prefers BY FAR the "round up" version (for the same reasons explained by Paul McKinney a couple of messages above this one). Which, by the way, is the OFFICIAL ruling, currently, since it's printed IN EVERY SINGLE rulebook published since 2015.
Some people prefer the "old/original" version, some other prefer the new one. It's called democracy. And opinions cool
 
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Daniel Corban
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The change was made, possibly unintentionally, by Uberplay (not the most reliable publisher) and I assume others have copied it since.
 
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Chris Broggi
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I've played it many times both ways and have not found any significant difference.
 
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Chris Funk
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ackmondual wrote:
Either way, it did make things more lively IMO. Ppl were VERY willing to back out on $1 since it meant a free property card. This led me to constantly bid in odd increments so that the next +1 bid would cause the other player to lose an extra $1 more than me


That's exactly why I like the round down. Make's a different strategy on bidding since, mentally, you're losing more.
 
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