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World at War: Eisenbach Gap» Forums » Rules

Subject: AP vs HE on light armored vehicles rss

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Matthew Jones
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Okay, so why would I ever want to use HE against a light armored vehicle (M113, M3, BMP, BRDM, ZSU)? The rules say that "you may" attack lighter AFVs with your HE score, but in practice the HE score is not as good as the AP score. Furthermore, units with no armor are "reduced" by each AP hit against them. With an AP shot I get to roll more dice and have a lower base to-hit number.

I also understand the real-world practice of engaging softer targets with HE rounds to save your precious Sabot rounds against heavier MBT targets.

But in game terms this becomes moot because I don't have ammunition to keep track of. Yes it's overkill to use AP in this situation, but seems to me that overkill is the real name of this game. Why not hit the BMP or M3 for 4d6 worth of shots and be able to possibly eliminate it in one shot!

Now, I could make a house rule about how much AP and HE ammo can be used in a scenario by a certain unit or side, which would increase that tension level. This actually will be something I look into, because I think it could totally change a scenario around to have different ammo loadouts.

The first game solo report I did last night would have come out completely different if Team Yankee had just gotten to Eisenbach for a refit, but the Sov. 1st Tank appeared on the horizon before they could reload and Yankee had deployed with only had 3 shots of AP ammo each. Much Hairier Defensive Situation.

So did I miss an ammo rule or an HE rule or something? (Totally possible) Or is AP simply the better choice against any vehicle and really the two values should really be: AP = attacking against vehicles and HE = Attacking against Infantry.

MJ

Edit:
PS I do like the game, just trying to wrap my head around this particular system and not bring in assumptions from other wargames...
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Andy M
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Sigrdrifa wrote:
Okay, so why would I ever want to use HE against a light armored vehicle (M113, M3, BMP, BRDM, ZSU)? The rules say that "you may" attack lighter AFVs with your HE score, but in practice the HE score is not as good as the AP score. Furthermore, units with no armor are "reduced" by each AP hit against them. With an AP shot I get to roll more dice and have a lower base to-hit number.

I could be interpreting the rules wrong, but I believe that you only roll dice based on the cover against an HE attack, so if a light vehicle is behind no cover at all, they get no saving throws. If a vehicle has no armour at all then yes, it's not worth it.

As I said though, I could be wrong, I am still learning.
 
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Matthew Jones
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moss_icon wrote:
Sigrdrifa wrote:
Okay, so why would I ever want to use HE against a light armored vehicle (M113, M3, BMP, BRDM, ZSU)? The rules say that "you may" attack lighter AFVs with your HE score, but in practice the HE score is not as good as the AP score. Furthermore, units with no armor are "reduced" by each AP hit against them. With an AP shot I get to roll more dice and have a lower base to-hit number.

I could be interpreting the rules wrong, but I believe that you only roll dice based on the cover against an HE attack, so if a light vehicle is behind no cover at all, they get no saving throws. If a vehicle has no armour at all then yes, it's not worth it.

As I said though, I could be wrong, I am still learning.

I think that's for completely unarmored vehicles. Section 1.3.4.2 has those two paragraphs, one for light armored with a armor factor of 1 and the second paragraph for those units without an armor factor. And, in that second paragraph, it says that those vehicles are automatically reduced for each successful AP hit against them.
 
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Andy M
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I see your point.

In 1.3.4.2

Quote:
The attacking vehicle rolls normally, using its HE firepower and to hit number. After determining the number of hits it obtains, the targeted AFV rolls to determine how many of the hits are ignored, under attacks on hard targets (6.1)

In 6.1:

Quote:
Attackers usually use their AP to attack hard targets and their HE to attack soft targets, helicopters, and or thin skinned and unarmoured vehicles

Also, this might help:

http://talk.consimworld.com/WebX?14@573.8THpdbVwEYV.13@.1dd2...
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Matthew Jones
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Thanks, that CSW thread did help a bit. At least we know we're not alone.

MJ
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Jim Snyder
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I think everyone is getting wrapped up on this looking at tanks. If you think of a Bradley, helo, or BMP that suffers ATGM depletion the only attack left is its HE fire. The rule allows you to use your HE fire on soft targets and unarmoured targets. I'll agree that it is overkill for a tank to shoot a sabot round at a soft target, but in the heat of battle you shoot what you can with what you have loaded.

I like the idea of an ammo rule though. I'll have to think on that for a bit.
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Matthew Jones
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Capn Darwin wrote:
I think everyone is getting wrapped up on this looking at tanks. If you think of a Bradley, helo, or BMP that suffers ATGM depletion the only attack left is its HE fire. The rule allows you to use your HE fire on soft targets and unarmoured targets. I'll agree that it is overkill for a tank to shoot a sabot round at a soft target, but in the heat of battle you shoot what you can with what you have loaded.

After reading the CSW thread (that you're a part of I believe, I know you're also in the LnL forums), I have to agree. I played scenario 2 after posting this and noticed that the T62 has a better HE value (though at a closer range, which is correct). So in a game, I'm going to go with whatever attack value nets me the most "bang" for my buck. If I'm a T72 attacking an M3 I'm still going to use AP in the game because I get to roll more dice at a farther range to kill the Bradley.

I guess my question was, is that really fair? Should there be firmer rules about when to use AP or HE? Now obviously it's not my design decision to make, but I'm certainly going to take as much advantage of it as long as possible.

Capn Darwin wrote:

I like the idea of an ammo rule though. I'll have to think on that for a bit.

It made a difference, I played scenario #1 again, with four shots for my M1s; it was a much tougher go of it. Part of that could be that I figured out how to play the Soviets. Get up close and personal ASAP.

In any case thanks for coming on over to BGG to find this thread. Hope you find it a welcoming place!
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Mark Walker
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Quote:
Okay, so why would I ever want to use HE against a light armored vehicle (M113, M3, BMP, BRDM, ZSU)?

An Abrams, for example, wouldn't but how about a M-113, BTR-60, or even a Bradley that was out of TOW ammunition? See what we were getting at? This lets stuff like a BRadley's 25mm chain gun, or even a M113's .50 cal light up a thin-skinned enemy vehicle.
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Matthew Jones
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Mark Holt Walker wrote:
Quote:
Okay, so why would I ever want to use HE against a light armored vehicle (M113, M3, BMP, BRDM, ZSU)?

An Abrams, for example, wouldn't but how about a M-113, BTR-60, or even a Bradley that was out of TOW ammunition? See what we were getting at? This lets stuff like a BRadley's 25mm chain gun, or even a M113's .50 cal light up a thin-skinned enemy vehicle.

I do see what you're getting at.

Okay how about the opposite situation? An M113 takes on a a T-72. I'm thinking that a T-72 is not really gonna be dented by the .50 on an M113. However, in the system it's possible to have your M113 reduce the T-72 platoon if it was already disrupted and the m113 rolled really well and the T-72 rolled really, really, really poorly.

Mark, I'm totally playing devil's advocate here and I'm pressing for a little more information. I hope that you've read around and you've noticed that I really like the system. I know that in the end it's a game and in order to not turn it into ATS or ASL, decisions had to be made. Guess I'm just curious about those design decisions.

MJ
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Quote:
Okay how about the opposite situation? An M113 takes on a a T-72.

No way for an M-113 platton to take on a T-72 platoon with direct fire. Only thin-skinned vehicles can be attacked with an AFV's HE capability. .50 cal shells bounce off T-72 armor.
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Matthew Jones
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Mark Holt Walker wrote:
Quote:
Okay how about the opposite situation? An M113 takes on a a T-72.

No way for an M-113 platton to take on a T-72 platoon with direct fire. Only thin-skinned vehicles can be attacked with an AFV's HE capability. .50 cal shells bounce off T-72 armor.

NOW I GET IT!!! I had to go back and re-re-(re-re)-read the 1.3.4 rules. It's in both what you say and, more importantly, what you don't say.

Heh, like I said, I thought it was a bit silly to have an IFV platoon take on tanks and win, maybe a disruption here or there as the tanks button up and antenna get torn off by the bullets, but not reducing numbers ...

Why did that take so much to wrap my head around... shake
 
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Mark Walker
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No problem. :-)
 
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