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Subject: A really strong defense rss

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Dave J McWeasely
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With only two units, how tough can a defense be? Try this:

Chitinous Ultralisk in front (8/10).
Ensnaring queen in back (0/+1).

11 health and the attacker's support is cancelled. It doesn't matter how many hordes he's got to watch your one skirmish. Also, there is no way to crack this with big guns alone - Reavers or BattleCruisers are spectators. The opponnent must bring a spellcaster and a good spell card, and also a big gun, in order to dislodge this.
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Riku Riekkinen
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Yes it is very strong. It can be broken by Protoss with Psionic Storm or Terran with Yamato or EMP shockwave. Zerg can go through with Ultralisk or Guardian,

If you add Defiler with Dark Swarm, Protoss can't get through that defence (they can do nothing, but hope zerg runs put of cards) and terran has to have EMP shockwave. Zerg can still get trough with Ultralisk.

So if protoss put Zealot to front line play Ensanre, if something other paly Dark Swarm. Note that unlike terran or zerg, protoss can't even splash their way through, since HT's Psionic Storm doesn't activate unless they get front line unit killed.

Protoss Stasis Field defence is thus not as good against Zerg, since Defiler can always weaken defeders with splash.
 
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Riku Riekkinen
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Quote:
Also, there is no way to crack this with big guns alone - Reavers or BattleCruisers are spectators.


Unless you attack with +1 attack token. Then you can get through with Battlecruiser, Carrier, Reaver, Guardian or Ultra with cheerleader.
 
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Dave J McWeasely
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Mostly,
but Ultralisk attack maxxes at 9, even with cheerleaders that won't beat 11 health.

Zerg and Protoss can scrape by with their 10-attacks and their support cards that give +1 attack. That's one card each for Guardian, Carrier, and Reaver. (Protoss are using singularity charge here).

Otherwise, you need a high-level caster and a very strong combat wombat.

 
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Riku Riekkinen
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I meant special attack token.
 
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Joel Tamburo
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Wouldn't it be even stronger to use a ground unit together with the Zerg Technology (Dark Swarm?) that disables all enemy ground attack values?
 
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Brian
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Yeah, EMP would be a key ability. hehe remove that pesky ensnare.
 
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Dave J McWeasely
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Joelist wrote:
Wouldn't it be even stronger to use a ground unit together with the Zerg Technology (Dark Swarm?) that disables all enemy ground attack values?
It depends on who's in front of the pack. If it's a zealot, supported by three archons, three carriers, three dragoons, five other zealots, three scouts, and three reavers, then the Dark Swarm doesn't help. Ensnare, however, keeps the Ultralisk alive against all that.
 
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Stefan Sasse
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It's really hard, you're right. But there are possibilities. Will give your enemy a headache, though.
 
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Joel Tamburo
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MrWeasely wrote:
Joelist wrote:
Wouldn't it be even stronger to use a ground unit together with the Zerg Technology (Dark Swarm?) that disables all enemy ground attack values?
It depends on who's in front of the pack. If it's a zealot, supported by three archons, three carriers, three dragoons, five other zealots, three scouts, and three reavers, then the Dark Swarm doesn't help. Ensnare, however, keeps the Ultralisk alive against all that.


I guess I am misinterpeting the tech then. My understanding was that the tech turns off all enemy ground attack values. What you're saying sounds like it turns off the attack of enemey ground units.
 
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Riku Riekkinen
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"All units in this skirmish exept Firebats, Zerglings, Ultralisks, and Zealots lose ground attack capability."

In my opinnion this says:

1. It affects both sides, not just enemy
2. All affected units lose ground attack capability - not just front-line units. So Archon in Dark Swarm skirmish is unable to support (it is treted not to have tank symbol in its attack options). Just like Firebat is normally unable to support against Mutalisk, since Firebat doesn't have air attack capability.
 
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Joel Tamburo
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I agree with your interpretation.

So, basically, if the Protoss lead with any other unit than a Zealot they are helpless. Having them in support doesn't help.
 
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Joel Tamburo
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MrWeasely wrote:
Joelist wrote:
Wouldn't it be even stronger to use a ground unit together with the Zerg Technology (Dark Swarm?) that disables all enemy ground attack values?
It depends on who's in front of the pack. If it's a zealot, supported by three archons, three carriers, three dragoons, five other zealots, three scouts, and three reavers, then the Dark Swarm doesn't help. Ensnare, however, keeps the Ultralisk alive against all that.


Not sure about that. Only the Zealots in your horde would contribute value, so your attack would be a max of 10. Assuming the defense is an Ultra and a Defiler, they can match that, and with a health card defeat it. I'd say the Gold mobilize order is also needed, even then two health cards will prevail over it.

It almost seems the best Zerg defense is an Ultralisk, Defiler and Queen combination. Beating that would be really tough.
 
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Riku Riekkinen
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Quote:
It almost seems the best Zerg defense is an Ultralisk, Defiler and Queen combination. Beating that would be really tough.


Like I said few posts ago, its impossible for Protoss.

If protoss attack with special attack token (+1), put Zealot to front-line (7 attack) and play Psionic Storm (+2) they end up total attack value of 10. So Ensnare+Ultralisk stops them.

If protoss put anything else than Zealot to front line, play Dark Swarm. The max attack for protoss is: +4 for 4 Zealots, +2 for Psionic Storm and +1 for attack token.
 
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Stefan Sasse
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That's right, but get the combination AND the cards handy all the time.
 
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Riku Riekkinen
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If protoss player knows what he is facing, its he's problem to figure out can you have right cards. Unless he is sure you win the game unless he attacks, it is a big risk to gamble special attack, zealot (who dies even successfull attack) and best zealot attack card. Mainly question is:"Is 8/10 card in your discard pile".

Main problem is that getting the defence needs 4 buildings and 3 techs minimum. Works better with 1 additional tech - Consume - you can hide additional zergling in the space, if stacking allows.
 
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James Thompson
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I pulled the Ensnare + Ultralisk against a big conga line of terran (vulture front line, tank goliath and marine supporting), and it was hilarious. This was in one of our first games, so no one really knew the power of the cards yet (including me; I bought the tech for the detector and +1 more than anything, because the Terran had Spider Mines, and only right before the battle did I realize that I could use it to such devastating effect).
 
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rob taylor
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MrWeasely wrote:
With only two units, how tough can a defense be? Try this:

Chitinous Ultralisk in front (8/10).
Ensnaring queen in back (0/+1).

11 health and the attacker's support is cancelled. It doesn't matter how many hordes he's got to watch your one skirmish. Also, there is no way to crack this with big guns alone - Reavers or BattleCruisers are spectators. The opponnent must bring a spellcaster and a good spell card, and also a big gun, in order to dislodge this.

As a new player I may have got some rules wrong.
If I attack your two units with say two battlecruisers,and 4 marines,would it not be a case of me picking 1 battlecruiser +
2 marines v your ultralisk.
Then 1 battlecruiser+2 marines v your queen.

Or have I (probably) got it all wrong.
Is it a case of me having all my units in one skirmish against your 2 units
 
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Dave J McWeasely
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You've got it all wrong.

The queen is a support unit, so it can not be the Front Line Unit in any skirmish. There is only one skirmish, with the Ultralisk. Your Cattlecruiser takes the lead, with a 10/9 Tomato Cannon card. With the other Cattlecruiser and quadro-marines, you get +6 support, but unfortunately the support is cancelled by the Queen's Ensnare card. Attack 10 versus toughness 11. So the Ultralisk lives, unless you also attacked with a golden attack order.
 
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rob taylor
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MrWeasely wrote:
You've got it all wrong.

The queen is a support unit, so it can not be the Front Line Unit in any skirmish. There is only one skirmish, with the Ultralisk. Your Cattlecruiser takes the lead, with a 10/9 Tomato Cannon card. With the other Cattlecruiser and quadro-marines, you get +6 support, but unfortunately the support is cancelled by the Queen's Ensnare card. Attack 10 versus toughness 11. So the Ultralisk lives, unless you also attacked with a golden attack order.

Brilliant,it is people like you who enhance and make simpler,the rules of such fiddly games as these,which help the brain dead like myself.
Many thanks.
 
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Dave J McWeasely
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(I forgot to mention that a single support unit can appear on the front line if there are no non-support units living with it)
 
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devvee
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I wonder if I got this right. The skirmish defense contains an ultralisk and a defiler (with dark swarm). Lets assume the attacker is a protoss with, say, an Archon (front) backed up by another archon and two zealots.

The protoss player attacks with a golden mobilize order and one of his neat archon cards. Since his frontline archon's ground attacks are rendered useless, does that mean he won't be dealing any damage at all?

Additionally, if your defense consists out of an ultralisk/defiler/queen and the same protoss attackers, would all the damage go to the queen instead? Since she's flying and the archon can only attack flying units with dark swam in play? If you used an ultralisk card for this skirmish, would the queen get the ultralisk's main defense value, or the smaller one?

I haven't played the game that much yet so I might have missed a rule somewhere that would clarify the whole thing, unless I'm actually understanding it correctly
 
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