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Subject: max theoretical score? rss

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Lee Fisher
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What's the max score you can really get, within possible available actions? Max score without occupations/minor improvements should be a bit easier to figure out I would think. Can anyone figure out a superhigh score with cards as well?
 
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Dave Kudzma
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I've pulled 55 before, and I was struggling for anything that would give me points with 2 family members left.

Not counting points from cards, if you managed to max out everything you'd get 57.

I would think high 50's to low 60's would top the game out.

Edit: I should mention that my 55 was in a 5 player game; best I have done solo is 51.
 
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Petri Savola
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Without cards (theoretical) maximum score is probably 60 (?).

Stone house of size 11: 22 points
0 fields: -1 points
4 pastures: 4 points
4 vegetables: 4 points
8 grain: 4 points
8 sheep: 4 points
5 boars: 3 points
4 cattle: 3 points
4 fenced stables: 4 points
5 family members: 15 points

Total: 60 points

Stone house is more valuable than fields, but pastures + animals are
more valuable than stone house. The example above assumes that no points are given from cards (which is unrealistic, because major improvements are always in game, right?).

More realistic max score is probably 57 as was suggested. It has
same stuff as above, but 5 stone rooms replaced with fields. The
maximum score with cards depends a lot on the number of players. I've managed to score 106 points in a solo game (using E-deck and solo game rules (1st round, no food, etc.)), but I'm sure the result could be
slightly improved. Cards that give points are the key for good scores in a solo game: Chief, Lord of the Manor, Half-Timbered House and such are very powerful. Quarry and Seasonal Worker seem very powerful cards as well.
 
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Petri Savola
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Some general hints how to get really high scores in a solo game:

- Don't take resources before you get lots of them. Avoid getting any resource more than twice or thrice during a game.
- Restart the game until round 1 card is sheep. You should collect sheep twice during the game and cattle/boars only once (hoping cattle appears on turn 10).
- Play professions early, because in the beginning there are no other
worthwhile actions. Because of this Seasonal Worker and Quarry are fantastic because you get extra bonuses while taking Day Labourer -action (which you should take very often).
- Good points require good occupations and decent small improvements. Restart until you get good combos.
- There is not a lot of wood in the game. You need 20 wood for fences and stables and some wood for expanding house also. In the game you get only 28 wood, so you'll need some occupation/improvement to help you OR you can expand wooden hut only one room.
 
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Larry Levy
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Brikke got a solo Family game score of 62. He gives the blow by blow description of how he got it here: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/229057. That's the highest score for that kind of game I've seen so far.
 
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Alex Sorbello
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Petri wrote:
Without cards (theoretical) maximum score is probably 60 (?).

Stone house of size 11: 22 points
0 fields: -1 points
4 pastures: 4 points
4 vegetables: 4 points
8 grain: 4 points
8 sheep: 4 points
5 boars: 3 points
4 cattle: 3 points
4 fenced stables: 4 points
5 family members: 15 points

Total: 60 points

Stone house is more valuable than fields, but pastures + animals are
more valuable than stone house. The example above assumes that no points are given from cards (which is unrealistic, because major improvements are always in game, right?).

More realistic max score is probably 57 as was suggested. It has
same stuff as above, but 5 stone rooms replaced with fields. The
maximum score with cards depends a lot on the number of players. I've managed to score 106 points in a solo game (using E-deck and solo game rules (1st round, no food, etc.)), but I'm sure the result could be
slightly improved. Cards that give points are the key for good scores in a solo game: Chief, Lord of the Manor, Half-Timbered House and such are very powerful. Quarry and Seasonal Worker seem very powerful cards as well.


just a minor question but how did you manage to get 8 grain and 4 vegetables without any fields?
Seems like a lot of wasting energy in collecting these! And how in the world did you still feed your family of 5?
My highest score to date was 54pts in a 4P game. Including some extra bonus points...
 
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Petri Savola
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It'd be hard to get 8 grain and 4 vegetables without fields (although possible) and that's why I said it is a theoretical maximum. I just tried my tactics in a family game and scored 65 points on the first attempt. I'm sure 68 is possible (I didn't build stone oven, but had the resources), but I don't know where the max is.
 
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Georg D.
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For those who speak germanthere is an exampel for the familyversion with 66points on the Lookout-Forum (http://forum.lookout-games.de/index.php?topic=661.msg1598#ms...)

Somewhere there somone said with choosing his cards and eliminating anyy randomness he has more than 100 points...


Fluxx
 
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Petri Savola
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Now I got 67 points - stone oven instead of clay oven and managed to get full points from boars and sheep (instead of only sheep). My approach is somewhat different to the one on that forum. He builds two wooden rooms, but in my opinion it's probably better to build only one wooden room to save wood for stables and fences. I build one clay room as well, but I'm not sure whether that's good or not.
 
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Pretentious? Moi?
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Petri wrote:
Some general hints how to get really high scores in a solo game:

- Don't take resources before you get lots of them. Avoid getting any resource more than twice or thrice during a game.
- Restart the game until round 1 card is sheep. You should collect sheep twice during the game and cattle/boars only once (hoping cattle appears on turn 10).
- Play professions early, because in the beginning there are no other
worthwhile actions. Because of this Seasonal Worker and Quarry are fantastic because you get extra bonuses while taking Day Labourer -action (which you should take very often).
- Good points require good occupations and decent small improvements. Restart until you get good combos.
- There is not a lot of wood in the game. You need 20 wood for fences and stables and some wood for expanding house also. In the game you get only 28 wood, so you'll need some occupation/improvement to help you OR you can expand wooden hut only one room.

This is very true!

These are good points. I'd add to them: Not only Sheep, but you want the Cattle to appear in Round 10, otherwise there's no way to get max points for them. Plus, you'll want to wait until Round 13 or 14 to collect them to get enough.

The Wild Boars are more flexible. Ideally, you want them to appear in Round 8 (in case you need to eat one, late in the game), but you can still max them out if they appear in Round 9 (& you wait until 13 or 14 to take them). Depending on your Grain/Veg strategy, you may want the Boars to appear after the Veggies.


Lately, I've been running through Solo scenarios, without Occupations or Minor Improvements (Major Improvements are a must, tho!) & trying to max out the score: 5 stone rooms, 5 family members, 4 fields, 3 stables, and a 2x3 gridwork of 5 pastures, with max crops & livestock.

I've found that the family can just scrape by on bread, fish, & mutton. Although, so far, it's tricky to get that last Veg or Animal, without resorting to Begging once.

For those interested, I've posted one of these solo games in a Session Report.


Family Size
Interestingly, a family of 4 (or 3) looks to be more productive than 5 in the solo game, because by the time that 5th (or 4th) child arrives, nearly all of the extra Actions gained are spent gathering more food (& there just aren't enough plentiful sources).

Strong Occupation & Minor Imps would really make the difference, here! Anything which gives extra resources, reduces the costs of Actions, or eliminates Action steps ("...at any time...") put you way ahead in the game.

When to take Family Growth is also important. It's cheaper, resource-wise, to wait until just before the harvest but you'll lose out on the extra Actions. I've been growing the family to 3 in Round 6, if the Action has appeared, and taking the trade-off of -2 Food for +1 (non-food gathering) Action. It's more crucial with the 4th & 5th.

Perceived game length
When viewed as a series of Actions, punctuated by Harvesting periods, the game takes on an interesting aspect since you can directly affect how many "turns" you'll get to take.

For a family of 2 you'll get just 28 Actions & the game will be half over by the second Harvest at Round 7. With three members, you'll have ~36 Actions, & will move the midpoint to the end of Round 8. With four, it's ~40 Actions & Round 9, which is a full harvest later (& usually occurs before that child is born!). The 5th member usually arrives so late, that the number of Actions jumps up to ~42, causing little to no effect on the game's Perceived length.

It may be more efficient, in terms of Food consumption, to take multiple Family Growth Actions, 4 & 5, near the final Round, just to boost the score--not sure on this one, yet...

Admittedly, this applies to the solitaire game, only. In multiplay, you'd want to be able to gather as many unclaimed resources as possible. Remember, the larger family also serves to offset the shortening harvest seasons.



 
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Werner Bär
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Fluxx wrote:
For those who speak germanthere is an exampel for the familyversion with 66points on the Lookout-Forum (http://forum.lookout-games.de/index.php?topic=661.msg1598#ms...)

Unfortunately, he used the Lagerhaus, which is not available in the solo game.

Quote:
Somewhere there somone said with choosing his cards and eliminating anyy randomness he has more than 100 points...

Sombody now posted a solution with 111 points: http://forum.lookout-games.de/index.php?topic=661.msg1643#ms...
Don't know if it's correct.
 
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Pretentious? Moi?
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I've posted a second Max Solo Session report, maximizing the resource categories, while using no Minor Improvements or Occupations. Final score: 66 or 64 Points.

The higher score sacrifices one stable, for the high VP Well. So, it doesn't quite use all of the bits.


 
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B C Z
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Does the existance of a max possible score, espeically the other posts detailing a fairly tight way to play which ignores professions/minor improvements, imply that in a multiplayer game that the professions/minor improvements don't pay off?

 
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Larry Levy
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Oh no, not at all. These are for solo games and is simply the maximum for games without cards. The maximum for a solo game with cards is at least 45 points higher.
 
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Pretentious? Moi?
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byronczimmer wrote:
Does the existance of a max possible score, espeically the other posts detailing a fairly tight way to play which ignores professions/minor improvements, imply that in a multiplayer game that the professions/minor improvements don't pay off?

Quite the opposite, many of the cards, especially those in the Komplex deck, have high vp bonuses. Some users have reported solo scores in excess of 100 points.

What I've been doing is treating the Solo game as a puzzle--trying to maximize every scoring category, while at the same time using as many wooden pieces as possible.

Just for the record, it turns out that you can't max everything at once & get it all to fit onto the board.

A 5-room house, 5 squares of plowed fields, 6 squares for the 4 pastures (capable of holding at least 8/7/6 sheep/boars/cattle) = 16 squares, which is one square larger than the player's board. So, I had to try different combinations.

I'm sure this was by design, to force the players to choose a strategy each game, instead of automatically placing each plowed field in "its spot" on the board.


 
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B C Z
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byronczimmer wrote:
Does the existance of a max possible score, espeically the other posts detailing a fairly tight way to play which ignores professions/minor improvements, imply that in a multiplayer game that the professions/minor improvements don't pay off?



Let me me ask again:

Given a set of cards, is there a maximum score for those cards?

If so, does that imply that any given set of cards creates a solvable 'perfect play' ideal in a game with opponents?
 
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Petri Savola
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byronczimmer wrote:
byronczimmer wrote:
Does the existance of a max possible score, espeically the other posts detailing a fairly tight way to play which ignores professions/minor improvements, imply that in a multiplayer game that the professions/minor improvements don't pay off?



Let me me ask again:

Given a set of cards, is there a maximum score for those cards?

If so, does that imply that any given set of cards creates a solvable 'perfect play' ideal in a game with opponents?

Yes, in the solo game there is a maximum score for any given set of cards. In multiplayer game the optimal play depends on other players' actions and your cards so there's still plenty of valid actions to choose from.
 
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Louise Holden
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Petri wrote:

- Play professions early, because in the beginning there are no other
worthwhile actions.


Aha, maybe this is where I'm going wrong. I keep getting mid 50's solo scores but don't seem to be getting any better. And I don't play out many Occupations.

I've been starting with grain and plough twice then sowing when I can- possibly this is too many actions (5) for the reward of a decent amount of grain for the next few turns. But without that start (and assuming no particularly useful cards for food generation) I'm not sure how I'm going to end up with enough food in later Harvests, even with eating sheep.

Maybe the answer is to get some decent cards......
 
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Paul New
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Depending on the farm layout I would estimate that the max score is in the late 50s early 60s without points from cards, but as an earlier poster pointed out
clearly there are points to be had from the mostly fundamental fireplaces, hearths or ovens in the game. Nonetheless, it is from the less usual sources that points are cards come into their own.

A personal best (mine being 58 in a 2 player for example) may consist of more or less maxing the farm and then scoring pts on as many cards as possible regardless of whether they formed a core part of the strategy prior to the final few rounds (BMW, Pottery, Well grabs etc). Having said that, a lot of bonus pt driven occupations form part of the early strategy (tutor etc) where you tend you know how your ideal game will pan out in terms of cards to be played. Minors can be coupled with majors to provide better baking efficiencies but also more points (Beehive in G deck alongside an oven for example).

I have a friend who maxes more or less the farm each and every time, yet does not necessarily beat me every time. Cards can definitely swing a tight game to your favour or similarly they can take a high score to a personal best.

The key I think is trying to build a 'points from cards' strategy INTO your game without having to work too hard at it (similar to what makes a good food engine). So, if you want to take the Well for 3 S, 1 W, then obtaining the required stone for that purchase is something that should ideally be done as part of your resource grab actions for building or renovating in stone (especially in 2 player where stone is scarcer than in 4 player for example).

One more element of play which is very characteristic of the highest scores and which is not to be underestimated is efficiency of move. In the games where the high scores are acheived, typically a player may not make one 'mistake' in terms of efficiency of worker placement. Even a seemingly inefficient grab at one point during the game could probably be justified by that player for reasons leading to an even more efficient move.

Sometimes out of your control, can be 2 players colliding on a similar feeding strategy that can also dent your chances of a personal best score. Having more or less free reign over a grain game when you have a strong grain draft can be a good sign of an imminent big score.
 
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David Shin
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With EGIK, you can easily top 1000 points in a 4er. I think if you really work hard at it, 2000 might be reachable.
 
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Derakon Derakon
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You can't just drop a bomb like that without explaining yourself.

I'm guessing this has something to do with Pumpkin Pie / Meat Pie shenanigans, since I seem to recall reading about some huge combo involving them. But from my reading, you can only make pie once per time you bake, which would seem to drastically limit your ability to make pies.
 
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David Shin
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Heh, sorry, I’ll offer a sketch of how it can be done. I’ve only thought about this in my own head without figuring out exact details. So here goes.

The ideas behind the strategy are based on this thread: http://play-agricola.com/forums/index.php?topic=2781.0. In that thread, Pain outlines how to score 1500+ points in solo mode, but relies on a bunch of weird cards from random decks that I’ve never heard of. Still, the key idea is the mega-Pumpkin Pie driven by Carrot Cake Baker.

First, you need to play all your occupations efficiently. For this, you have Educator. Next, you need to play 20-30 minors efficiently. You can play 30+ by playing Broom (14 minors) and by playing a bunch of passing minors repeatedly. The key to playing them efficiently is Hobbyist, which you can activate ~20 times in a 4er.

The occupations you play besides Educator and Hobbyist are: Market Crier, Greengrocer, Corn Profiteer, and two others which I’m undecided about. I’ll discuss the other two spots after highlighting the rest of the strategy.

Market Crier with Corn Profiteer helps you feed and pay for your educating and hobbying.

First, you need to plow a bunch of fields. The key card here is Punner, which you should easily activate 10-12 times from your opponents’ Harrow, Moldboard Plow, Swing Plow, etc. You should throw in Acreage, Lettuce Patch, Beanfield, Turnip Field, Winter Garden for some spots to sow.

Second, you need to acquire grain and veggies. For that, you rely on your Greengrocer and Market Crier, until you attain a critical mass.

Third, you need to sow repeatedly. Scythe helps you resow constantly onto occupied fields. Gardening Tools helps you sow several times per round. Your opponents will sow repeatedly each round with the help of Baker’s Daughter, Shovel, Field Warden, Seed Spreader, Irrigation Canal, and Corn Storehouse.

Fourth, you need to harvest often so that you can sow often. Tourist Farm should activate 3 times per round with the help of your opponents’ Freeloader and Understudy. Your Manure will help as well. You’ll also rely on a repeatedly passing Almanac to try to squeeze out an extra harvest each round.

Fifth, you need to sow a lot each time you sow. For that, you have Potato Dibber and Liquid Manure.

Finally, you need to score points. For that, you rely on your opponent’s Harvest Feast, and then you convert each 2v2g into 3pts with Carrot Cake Baker and Pumpkin Pie.

Once your entire system is set up, I believe the bottleneck lies in your ability to harvest your goods, and the number of spaces available to sow onto. Sowing actions should not be a bottleneck with your Gardening Tools. If we say we have 18 spaces to sow onto (12 fields, Acreage, Lettuce Patch, Beanfield, Turnip Field, Winter Garden), we can sow 9v and 9g each time we sow. With Liquid Manure and Potato Dibber, that 9v9g becomes 36v36g. I estimate 4 harvests per round (Tourist Farm x3 and Almanac), plus a "natural" harvest (end of Stage or Manure). If we sow after each harvest, that is 5 sowings per round, meaning that we add 27x5=135 grain and 135 veggies per round. That translates into 200+ points per round, meaning that 1000 points is attainable in the last 5 rounds alone.

If you get the combo set up even faster, and get this going for 10 rounds, that is 2000 points.

Finally, there are the two occupation spots that I alluded to earlier. I can see Stonecutter helping to help play the repeatedly passing Almanac and the Scythe. Not sure about the final spot. Getting 4 animals for your Liquid Manure is also a challenge, I think Sheepdog is the best answer for that.
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Geoff Burkman
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Why does my one leg feel like it's longer than the other? whistle
 
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James Klemm
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dshin wrote:

Tourist Farm should activate 3 times per round with the help of your opponents’ Freeloader and Understudy.


This might be able to work if we can figure out a way to let people take fishing multiple times. For example, wood dist in play, 2 players have basket and muchroom collector. Or forewoman.
 
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David Shin
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MisterBond wrote:
dshin wrote:

Tourist Farm should activate 3 times per round with the help of your opponents’ Freeloader and Understudy.


This might be able to work if we can figure out a way to let people take fishing multiple times. For example, wood dist in play, 2 players have basket and muchroom collector. Or forewoman.


I guess it's illegal to take the fishing action if there is no food on it? That complicates matters a bit.
 
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