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Subject: Can a battle end with colocated friendly and enemy units? rss

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Steven Harris
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Per the discussion in the parallel thread here, Rule 6.24 -- Declaring Battle Hexes (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/2009598#2009598), do the rules require that at battle end no friendly and enemy units may be colocated in the same hex? Rules 8.4c (Concluding Ground Combat) and 8.5 (Retreat) address ground units having to retreat after losing a battle. I couldn't find a rule that clearly addresses whether naval and air units must retreat similarly.

Rule 8.62, Offensives Post Battle Movement, is somewhat muddled in what it requires and permits. For example, the paragraph ends as follows:
Quote:
Naval units may remain or move to a friendly controlled hex that contains a port. Air units may move to a friendly controlled hex that contains an airfield. Any unit that must move to a friendly location but is unable to do so is eliminated.
Naval units may remain -- whether or not the Offensives player won the battle? Air units may move -- again, even if the Offensives player lost, does this become must? Does this imply that air units may remain in the battle hex? The last sentence mentions units that must move, but I don't see where these requirements are stated.
 
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Alexander B.
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I believe the intent here is to say "remain IN or move to a friendly..."

Air units may remain in an enemy controlled hex, but are then eliminated. Air units also don't HAVE to leave the battle hex if they won and it is a friendly airfield.

The trick with this game is to play it. Really, when I first read the rules, they seems VERY bad. The fact is that they make a lot of sense with a bit of play.

The game has a rare, and very cool, level of detail that is hard to explain in words, but which makes a ton of sense in play.

What happens in real games, is that after a battle, you move your navy back to a friendly port and your air back to a friendly airfield if it lost the field it was on. The reason it seems so complex is that there are always edge/corner cases that rarely happen that he must worry about.

For airfields, you normally attack from a friendly field into a battle hex, but then he needs to worry about what happens when the airfield that the aircraft are in gets attacks, so he has to allow them to move, or not and be eliminated.

What's especially wacky is that there are times that you might not mind something getting eliminated, hence the "may"s. You might prefer to essentially disband a ripped up U.S. air so it can be taken sooner as a reinforcement, rather than retreat it (even if you can) in some cases. Another reason for the mays is that you might have won the battle and it can be very important choice as to if you want to keep your air there or take advantage of the fact that a battle happened to move them elsewhere, thereby getting a free move. This is done with navy all the time. I've attacked at times with a 10% intent to do damage, and a 90% intent to rebase my ships.

There is also this:

"8.61 Reaction Post Battle Movement
If a battle hex is captured by the Offensive, any Reaction player ground units retreat if they can; if they cannot they are eliminated (e.g., one hex island). If the Reaction ground units win they remain in the battle hex. Active Reaction player units move and must end their movement in a Reaction player controlled hex (e.g., air units on airfields, naval units in port)."
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Steven Harris
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Re: Can a battle end with colocated friendly and enemy units
diamondspider wrote:
The game has a rare, and very cool, level of detail that is hard to explain in words, but which makes a ton of sense in play.
Details of the rest of the discussion aside, this quote of yours makes me even more excited to pick up EotS. If you've written more of your thoughts of the game elsewhere, I'd appreciate any pointers you can share.
 
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Mark Herman
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I just caught up with this extended thread and I am not sure that I fully understand the question without an example, but I think what is being asked is what happens if after the offensive player moves, the reaction player moves units into the same hex as offensive units. This could easily happen with naval units. The answer is this does not cause a battle. Battles are declared by the Offensive player (exception Special Reaction), the reaction player cannot cause battles by co-locating naval units in the same hex as offensive units. They could both participate in the same declared battle, but their physical occupation of the same space does not create a battle per se.

I hope that helps,
Mark
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Steven Harris
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Re: Can a battle end with colocated friendly and enemy units
MarkHerman wrote:
The answer is this does not cause a battle. Battles are declared by the Offensive player (exception Special Reaction), the reaction player cannot cause battles by co-locating naval units in the same hex as offensive units.
But then how does this work in concert with rule 6.24, Declaring Battle Hexes, that mandates that any hex with colocated units must be declared a battle hex? Does this mean that on the next Offensive that hex would automatically become a battle hex?
 
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Mark Herman
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I think I see the confusion. Only the offensive player can declare battle hexes (exception special reaction). So at the start of an offensive all hexes start occupied solely by units of the same side.

Then the offensive player moves his units. Those that enter enemy occupied hexes (or within range for air/carrier units) must be declared battle hexes. If their are any special reaction situations, they get declared before any reaction player units move.

From this point on, no new battle hexes can be declared, so the only colocation that would occur now is if the Reaction player moves into a hex containing offensive units that were not in a battle hex, but within range of one. I think this situation can only happen with naval units as air units need a friendly airbase and ground units can only enter battle hexes. This does not cause a new battle hex to be declared, the fact that naval units are colocated has no impact on anything as units participate in battles and all reaction units that move, must participate in a battle.

I hope that helps,

Mark
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Steven Harris
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Re: Can a battle end with colocated friendly and enemy units
MarkHerman wrote:
the only colocation that would occur now is if the Reaction player moves into a hex containing offensive units that were not in a battle hex, but within range of one. I think this situation can only happen with naval units as air units need a friendly airbase and ground units can only enter battle hexes.
One detail that's not too clear in Rule 8.62 (Offensive Post Battle Movement), but that is mentioned in Rule 7.21 (Naval Movement), is that a naval unit must conclude an offensive in a friendly controlled port:
Quote:
If a naval unit, after post battle movement (see rule 8.6) cannot end an Offensive in a friendly controlled port hex for any reason, it is eliminated.
It takes reading these two rules together to realize that colocation is forbidden once the offensive is over, so no following offensive could begin with colocated units.

Do you concur?
 
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Alexander B.
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Yup, it can't happen.
 
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Mark Herman
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seharris wrote:
MarkHerman wrote:
the only colocation that would occur now is if the Reaction player moves into a hex containing offensive units that were not in a battle hex, but within range of one. I think this situation can only happen with naval units as air units need a friendly airbase and ground units can only enter battle hexes.
One detail that's not too clear in Rule 8.62 (Offensive Post Battle Movement), but that is mentioned in Rule 7.21 (Naval Movement), is that a naval unit must conclude an offensive in a friendly controlled port:
Quote:
If a naval unit, after post battle movement (see rule 8.6) cannot end an Offensive in a friendly controlled port hex for any reason, it is eliminated.
It takes reading these two rules together to realize that colocation is forbidden once the offensive is over, so no following offensive could begin with colocated units.

Do you concur?


Correct...I chose for this design to make a strategic Pacific wargame that was in fact a strategic Pacific wargame. There is no tactical nuance intended like in all other Pacific one map games (which for some reason makes them strategic in most peoples minds). As far as I am aware most strategic Pacific War games introduce various tactical decisions, usually around carrier battles. I am not sure why a Nimitz would have anything to do with that type of decision, so it is not in EoTS. This is why co-location when it occurs does not carry any rules implications. Those ships are operating in the vicinity of the battle, maneuvering, fighting, whatever, so the co-location is just a physical artifact that carries no weight in the design.

It is also the reason why many wargamers have rejected this design, it doesn't conform to their view of what a Pacific War game should include and the abstractions just fry too many neurons for comfort.

Mark
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Alexander B.
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MarkHerman wrote:
..

It is also the reason why many wargamers have rejected this design, it doesn't conform to their view of what a Pacific War game should include and the abstractions just fry too many neurons for comfort.

Mark


It is also what, for me, makes it the best representation of what it must have felt like to be "top brass" in any major war in any game ever created. It is also what makes it a unique and challenging gaming experience unlike any other.

Great stuff! A masterpiece in my book. The only reason I can't give it a 10, is playing the full game is really so much better than the shorter variants, and that still takes us 12ish hours (mostly due to how long we must think about what to do!). This makes it get played/suggested a bit less than other games--but an extra special treat when we do have the time or manage to split it into two evenings.

P.S. Oh yeah, it is a serious brain-smoker!
 
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