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Subject: Time to u[date these rules! rss

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Craig Truesdell
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The world needs an updated tactical football game. The main goal is to help Ohio State STOP the spread offense! I will post some things as we go and feel free to join in relating any experiences related to playing this game. I would love to get my hands on some design notes!
 
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Clinton Smith
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I agree that Scrimmage could be a pretty decent game if the rules were updated. About a month or two ago I actually came up with some very general ideas for doing that.

First of all, it needs some kind of impulse movement system for a greater feel of simultaneous action. The movement allowances (speed) printed on the counters could still be used. There could be maybe 12 impulses in a game-turn. A player with a movement allowance of 12 could move in every impulse while a player with an MA of 9 would be limited to movement in 9 of the impulses.

Blocking and tackling could be done without reference to a table. Simply compare a player's strength rating (or whatever its called) plus a die roll to an opposing player's strength plus a die roll, with the higher total winning that encounter. The loser would be tackled or blocked (pushed one hex or neutralized for one or two impulses).
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Craig Truesdell
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Impulse movement or at least cutting the movement per turn in half will work with impulse movement being the most realistic solution. The downside is that playing time will increase (maybe 4 impulses per turn?). One way to speed it up is to have mandatory "Scripted" plays by the offense. Basically, preplot the movement for each player although some plays will have some "reads" based on the defense. Maybe some 3x5 cards with the play diagrammed out. The blocking system you mentioned is a good idea. Something like a base 10 system. Have the die roll difference determine how effective the block really is like you said. I need to get some football footage as I don't think most blocks push players back more than a couple of yards unless it is a double team. Using a 3 yard scale, pushing someone back may be unrealistic. Still, using the game system, you could give the player a choice, reduce the blocking result by one by "retreating" a hex. That way, power mismatches or good die rolls will result in someone being pushed back especially for double teams. I like that idea because it sticks with the football game is a wargame theme. Also, house rule #1, no goofy formations or snapping the ball to a man in motion.

Regardless, I would like to try a game using the rules as is to see how it plays against a live person.
 
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Craig Truesdell
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Re: Time to update these rules!
Also, the hex grain is all wrong. Plays the same but it looks goofy. I am sure they did it so they could fit it on the map. Also, we need additional WR's.
 
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Alex Henderson
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I have a CyberBoard gamebox for Scrimmage (and another for Goal Line Stand) on my web site at http://cryhavocgames.net/other_stuff.htm

 
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Craig Truesdell
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I have downloaded those. That's what got me started looking at these games. Thanks for that! and OSU getting killed on defense 2 years in a row now! Anyhow, any comments on the grain thing? I am sure he did it so the field would fit on the map. Just seems odd having them all on a slant! You could let them move on hexsides I suppose which would be interesting but may create more problems. I am guessing the time scale is 2 seconds per turn? Has anyone ever read any design notes?
 
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Clinton Smith
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I don't see any reason why counters can't be allowed to face in one of 12 different directions instead of only 6. Lots of times I do this when playing tactical wargames (Tobruk, for example). There's no need to move onto hexsides- a player can "slide" left or right as he moves forward one hex. A player can even move sideways or backwards, though more slowly obviously.
 
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Darrell Hanning
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Pardon me for saying so, but I don't think tweaking the hell out of Dunnigan's grizzled turkey is going to help Ohio State one bit.

You want them to learn how to deal with the spread, I suggest they start changing who they play during the season.
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Craig Truesdell
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Re: Time to update these rules!
I agree, using a 12 pt facing scheme makes a lot of sense and is fairly easy to incorporate. Would you force the player to be in a hex when they are done with their move? How would zones of control be impacted?

True,facing tougher teams at the start would keep the team from learning bad habits such as you don't always get 5 seconds to throw a pass and sometimes the other teams DBs are faster than our WRs. I was glad to see USC on the schedule the next 2 years.
 
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Clinton Smith
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A player should absolutely have to be inside of a particular hex at all times. Stacking would be much simpler that way. When facing a vertex of a hex instead of a hexside the ZOC would be the two hexes directly in front of the player.

Here's an example of how the impulse movement system could work. Let's say that there are six impulses per game-turn. Depending on his speed rating a player could move either 1 or 2 hexes per impulse:

Impulse
.....1st/2nd/3rd/4th/5th/6th
Sp.8:1/2/1/1/1/2
Sp.9:1/2/1/2/1/2
Sp.10:2/1/2/1/2/2
Sp.11:2/1/2/2/2/2
Sp.12:2/2/2/2/2/2

A player could change his facing 30 or 60 degrees per hex while moving (at no cost), but a facing change of 90 degrees or more would limit movement to a maximum of 1 hex per impulse.

A player would be allowed to move sideways or backwards one hex per impulse but only in impulses in which he could normally move 2 hexes.

If a player contacts, or is contacted by, another player he may move no more than 1 hex in the next impulse.

When a player is neutralized he would be unable to move during an impulse. At the end of each impulse neutralization markers would be reduced one level.

I should playtest this stuff, I suppose.

 
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Craig Truesdell
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I would be concerned with the 6 impulses due to some movement choices costing 3 MP and sometimes the player must run "through" his own player. I did see Willie Parker do this for the Steelers one time, he just barely jumped between the Tackle and the Guard before he broke into the clear. The announcers were teasing Jerome Bettis about it during the post game show.
 
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Clinton Smith
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My desire is to eliminate the whole concept of movement points.
 
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Craig Truesdell
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That would work and would make a lot of sense although the interaction would be so heavy that the game could only be played ftf which isn't so bad. I would use a chess timer though to speed the game along. PBEM would not be possible in my view.

Something that might work is to have the ball carrier leave a trail of the hexes moved through with markers indicating the total expended so far. That way, a player could move a LB say 4 MPs and contact the runner if he can reach the spot where the runner had expended 4 MPs or less. That would keep the player from blowing by other players while they are motionless.

Another trick would be to set the maximum MPs expended per impulse equal to 1/2 the distance between an active defender and the ball carrier.

Along those lines, I watched some youtube last night and timed players running full tilt. They could cover 10 yards/sec while running in traffic caused to run at a max of 5 yards/sec. It was youtube and it wasn't scientific but the results were consistent from what I could tell.
 
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Clinton Smith
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I've been thinking about the stacking issue and I feel like there should be a maximum of 2 men allowed in a hex. This seems reasonable given that a hex is only 5 feet across.
 
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Craig Truesdell
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Re: Time to update these rules!
I would agree with that, it make short yardage situations more interesting. I would make a rule though that only the ball carrier can stack with another player and that contact is rolled for first when checking for passive contact.
 
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Randall Bart
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Artaxerxes wrote:
I've been thinking about the stacking issue and I feel like there should be a maximum of 2 men allowed in a hex. This seems reasonable given that a hex is only 5 feet across.

Five feet is huge. When there's a fumble you will see ten men (or more) in a space that is only two hexes on this map board.

The game definitely need impulse movement to be at all realistic, but the added movement point cost for moving through your own blockers will make the moves impractically complex.

This seemed like a good idea for a game three decades ago, but it was a turkey then and it's more of a turkey now. The best way to improve this game is to toss it and play Madden.
 
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Clinton Paris
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Play Madden? I've played it a couple of times and knew it wasn't quite right, but then I realized how broken it really was once I caught a couple episodes of Madden Nation on ESPN to see how the game is played competitively.

Verdict on Madden: "Thanks, but No Thanks."
 
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Craig Truesdell
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Re: Time to update these rules!
I have not played Madden yet but I have played the College version which is similar. I found that you can get realistic games if you tweak the settings a little bit. I had to make interceptions harder, the CPU defenders more "aware", running offense better, passing tougher, and a few more things that I can't remember (also play needs to be slower, too easy to break the huddle quickly). As packaged, it was a good game but it wasn't football but they give you enough tweaks to make it realistic. Also, you can let the CPU control the players if you don't touch the joystick (at least on defense).
 
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