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Subject: GREAT GAME - Don't Believe the Naysayers!!! rss

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Ray Diebel
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Okay...
So a lot of people have a hard time with the rules to this game...becuase they were hoping for a "Simple, easy game!" It couldn't be simpler, people, if you just employ logic!

Without reviewing the rules too thoroughly, let me summarize briefly...
Each round is divided into 5 steps, called action rounds. This is an important element since you need to "plan" your resources prior to every round, thereby committing your team of heroes for the next 5 steps. It's all about resource balancing...and using your pieces wisely EVERY STEP of the way!

And ... although I might be oversimplifying ... you only have to choose from a few options each time. Move, Attack (Troubleshoot), Heal, Storyline, or Special Action. The trick is, depending upon the current combination of headlines in play, the main objective, and the quality of palyer that is controlling your nemesis (and possibly an odd factor like a "nemesis headline" or a "most wanted villain")...you need to take maximum advantage of the proper combination of your superheroes skill sets and special abilities each an every step of the way.

Aside from Mutant Chronicles Siege of the Citadel, I have never been more impressed with a game in it's ability to make each player everyone else's opponent. It really is a mercenary-play style game...and I give Fantasy Flight Games and it's writers great Kudos for putting together such a well balanced game.

For people that don't like dice...don't play games.
For people who don't like the math...you shouldn't play games.
For people who don't like cards....you, too, shouldn't play games.

This is not a "simple" game by any means....it is a gamer's game! And a damn good one at that!!! iT IS SO WELL BALANCED ... making a key part of my own strategy to always not be in the lead...but as close to it as possible!

By the way....anybody who suggested that one team is better than another...I disagree.

I'm done ranting...
Let me just say...if you are a gamer that's been looking for a great game that requires balancing your resources to be well prepared no matter what is thrown at you...this is it. Yes...the mechanic is a bit "involved," but once you play it a second, maybe third, time, it's actually quite simple...and that much more enjoyable.

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Chris Brisiel
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I have to agree with you on this one. While the rules and mechanics were a tad overwhelming at first (to the point where this one sat on my shelf for a couple months)... its really not that difficult, and is allot of fun. You feel like the commissioner of your superhero team, dispatching your troops as effectively as possible.
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E J
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Don't believe the above yaysayers, the game is a mess.

It's not about being simple or not or about using logic. I think most games require logic. Bad argument.

I'm done ranting...
Let me just say...if you are a gamer that's been looking for a great game that requires balancing your resources to be well prepared no matter what is thrown at you...this is not it. Yes...the mechanic is illogical most of the way through, but once you play it a second, maybe third, time, it gets worse....and that much more a pain in the neck.
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waitsfan wrote:
...and I give Fantasy Flight Games and it's writers great Kudos for putting together such a well balanced game.


waitsfan wrote:
By the way....anybody who suggested that one team is better than another...I disagree.


You have every right to disagree. I too used to think that all teams were balanced, but it really didn't take long for me to realize that the forums were right - the F4 are too powerful and in the hands of a competant (not even "good," just "competant") player who plays agressively, they will win 90% of the games they play. That's my opinion; I know you disagree with it, but the statistics from the dozens of games I've played seem to indicate otherwise.

waitsfan wrote:
For people that don't like dice...don't play games.
For people who don't like the math...you shouldn't play games.
For people who don't like cards....you, too, shouldn't play games.


I feel fairly confident in disagreeing with this comment. There are plenty of good games that lack games, lack intensive math, and/or lack luck-of-the-draw mechanics, so I don't think you should tell someone that they shouldn't be a gamer if they dislike one or more of those mechanics.

All that said, I'm glad you've found a game that you love, and I hope it brings you deeper into the world of board gaming. Cheers!
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Paul Duroni
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I agree with the OP, boo to all you naysayers. Its fun and deep enough to allow strategy and to ensure replayability. It has way too many haters for what it deserves.
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Robert Gardunia
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Being huge Marvel fans and used to be hardcore wargamers (we're now more 'mainstream' but still enjoy the occasional complex games), we really really really wanted to like this game. I'm generally a huge fan of FFG as well, but I can't agree that this is something I'd ever want to play again. It seems like they were trying to capture the 'story' element of a comic book but the elements (story cards, combat, etc.) were far too abstract to really give any of us any real satisfaction (I wish I could be more specific but I haven't played in awhile and don't remember much).

As far as balance, we didn't see the point of playing enough times to really see if the FF were overpowered, but from the first game it seemed pretty obvious that the spidey team was horribly underpowered to the rest of them, especially end game when everyone else had aircraft!

I suppose my ultimate point is, try the game out a couple times if possible before buying so as to avoid possible disappointment.
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Thomas Taylor
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Yes, try before you buy.

I'm firmly in the "This game is a steaming pile" camp, but your mileage may vary.
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Jimmy Shaftoe
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Yup, it is great fun for sure.

Plenty of Marvel style action.

Fantastic artwork.

Gotta love those dice ! * !



Edit for typo.

 
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Grant Sharp
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Well, our group is in the "we love it" camp. All of our games (5 so far) have been close, exciting, and fun. We love all of the choices and the various ways to advance your team and get VP's. No team has emerged as clearly better than any others in our games.

The game is not what I expected, but I really like what it is, and it's on the top of my groups request list now.
 
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Brian M
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I keep being on the fence as to whether to try Marvel Heroes or not. I think this 'review' pushes me strongly toward the 'not try' side.
 
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Donald Dennis
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There was a good game in there, wanting to get out. Perhaps two. It's a shame it (they?) couldn't find the light of day under all the other junk they piled on top of it.

It is not a game accessible enough to appeal to comic fans who are not hard core gamers, and it's not a good enough game to appeal to gamers that are not comics fans. In all it's poorly balanced and schizophrenic.
 
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Jorge Arroyo
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Yeah, do not believe them! This is an excellent game, no matter what a vocal minority says!

-Jorge
 
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maka wrote:
Yeah, do not believe them! This is an excellent game, no matter what a vocal minority says!


I don't think it's the minority...50/50 at best
 
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Ray Diebel
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Well,

It's nice to have sparked a debate. To further elaborate on a few of my initial points...

About the mechanics...
All games have a mechanic, and most involve either dice, cards, and counting up some type of score. This game has a lot of all of those elements, and that seems to be a common complaint in many of the forums. I find it ironic that board game players would object to one or all of these. Why not go play Nintendo instead?

About the story line...
It's abstract, sure. Imagine it to be positive headlines to gain popularity for your team. The love of the public fuels your funding, and now you can advance your team. And if you can't comprehend that, then just tell yourself "it's a resource." That's all. Players need to decide for themselves if the oppotrtunity to grab up this "resource" is worth foregoing a troubleshoot, or a move, or a support action, etc.

About the complaints on the map:
Yeah, the game could, in essence, be played without the board. But why not use it? It's a great way to organize and keep track of what resources are located where. If you really think about it...chess can be played wihtout a board! But WHY would you????

About the team balance -
There is an enemy in the deck geared to defeaing every hero. Every nemesis can be defeated by their foe...and vice-versa. It's a question of making sure you supprot your heroes appropriately for each headline. If you go in light and end up with big trouble, well then maybe you should have sent the dude in with more support or a few ally cards. And yeah, I think Fantastic Four is tough, and I think X-men aren't as tough, but as a player who "gets it," I'd match up my four against every other...and feel confident I can be competetive. Besides...some of the Scenorio's aren't even about being aggressive with your heroes...but rather with your villains! Alot of this is how you balance your villains, too! Back-Up effects make some of the villains incredibly difficult to beat. And hopefully you are saving some of the "middle of the road villains" to put good dents in the heroes before going for the throat with your nemesis! It's all about proper timing. The winners of this game are always good at making the most of what you have to work with when you have it work with it! There are TOO MANY CARDS and TOO MANY DICE ROLLS to suggest that bad cards or bad dice lost the game for you!

If there is any complaint I have (and it's not really a complaint):
It's the games where your heroes lose bacause another group of heroes...or a less strategic player....loses a troubleshoot that you are not involved in (particularly due to poor card play). For example, when the X-Men fall to Magneto and the Magneto player (in last place) wins...even though you were in second on the verge of overtaking the X-men. It's FRUSTRATING...but then I think "SHAME ON ME" for not being more aggressive.

I just think this is a heavy-duty game with an initially-overwhelming but-wieldable mechanic with great art, a great ability to "feel" the Marvel Universe, and dare I repeat - TREMENDOUS BALANCE. Giving the last place player the first turn, and giving the Archnemisis power to keep the first place player under control are wondeful mechanics to keep everybody in the game. And all it takes is ONE ROUND that the headlines aren't so ripe for the picking to throw the leader right under a bus!

All of those even considering the game. Play-test it...at least 3 games. First game - just "grasp" the concepts. Second game "grasp" the mechanic. Third game grasp the strategy. Get a feel for those three, then go into the fourth confident to kick some tail...no matter what team you are working with!!!

The more I talk about it....the more I can't wait to play a few more games this Sunday!

And all you naysayers...all good! Have fun with whatever other game floats your boat! I tend to love a lot of others myself. This one just finally struck a proper chord for me because of it's balance.
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Ken B.
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I've championed the game since I first played it. It's one of the few games good enough to inspire my friends to pick up their own copies (and play them when I'm not around, the cads!)

It's a great game. Maybe not what everyone expected, and there are flaws, but overall it's a damn fine game.

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Jorge Arroyo
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divisionbyzorro wrote:
maka wrote:
Yeah, do not believe them! This is an excellent game, no matter what a vocal minority says!


I don't think it's the minority...50/50 at best



Watching the ratings graph seems to say otherwise. Most of the ratings are grouped between 6-8 with many more 8s than 6s...

-Jorge
 
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Aloha!
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I can understand why you would enjoy this game, I really do, but is just feels a little incomplete to me. It needs something to pull all of the elements together. I really think a well-designed expansion could make this into a real gem.

Even the most upbeat of people will have to admit the rulebook for this game is pretty awful. Not the art or anything, just the organization or complete lack thereof.

Not trying to be negative, just honest.
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Andy M
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maka wrote:
divisionbyzorro wrote:
maka wrote:
Yeah, do not believe them! This is an excellent game, no matter what a vocal minority says!


I don't think it's the minority...50/50 at best



Watching the ratings graph seems to say otherwise. Most of the ratings are grouped between 6-8 with many more 8s than 6s...

-Jorge


exactly.

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/graphstats/14808
 
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Alexander B.
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I love comics.
I love board games.
I love the idea of this game.

But there really are problems with the rules and the card powers... really!

I bought the game and was pretty disappointed in the lack of play-testing regarding the interaction of card effects.

Nobody can say there aren't problems in that regard, and nothing screws a game up more than arguments over how the game works.

 
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Jorge Arroyo
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True, the rulebook is not very good, but a good rulebook does not make a good game, and a bad rulebook doesn't mean a game is bad. Many games I enjoy have (or had) terrible rulebooks (Return of the Heroes, Magic Realm 1st edition, etc...)

Once you get past the rulebook, there's an excellent game there.

-Jorge
 
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Matthew M
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waitsfan wrote:


About the complaints on the map:
Yeah, the game could, in essence, be played without the board. But why not use it? It's a great way to organize and keep track of what resources are located where. If you really think about it...chess can be played wihtout a board! But WHY would you????


Ummm...in chess, the relative position of every figure to every other figure is important. Comparing the utility of the board in that case to the case of Marvel Heroes is a bit silly.

Quote:
There are TOO MANY CARDS and TOO MANY DICE ROLLS to suggest that bad cards or bad dice lost the game for you!


If every card draw and dice roll were weighted roughly equally, that would be true.

Quote:

I just think this is a heavy-duty game with an initially-overwhelming but-wieldable mechanic with great art, a great ability to "feel" the Marvel Universe, and dare I repeat - TREMENDOUS BALANCE.


I'll disagree on almost all counts. It is not heavy-duty. The mechanics are more cumbersome than they need to be, I do not get the feel of the Marvel Universe from picking between red, orange, or yellow, and the balance, though certainly not bad for a game with this many degrees of freedom, is not approaching "tremendous".

Quote:
Giving the last place player the first turn, and giving the Archnemisis power to keep the first place player under control are wondeful mechanics to keep everybody in the game.


That's not balance...it's handicapping. And it encourages being in second place (and hopefully to the left of the player in last place) until the last turn. That doesn't feel particularly heroic to me.

Quote:
And all it takes is ONE ROUND that the headlines aren't so ripe for the picking to throw the leader right under a bus!


You say that like it's a good thing. Most people would consider a "heavy-duty" game one in which someone who plays better will win - not one in which someone who plays better can be thrown under a bus due to card draws beyond his control.


Quote:

And all you naysayers...all good! Have fun with whatever other game floats your boat! I tend to love a lot of others myself. This one just finally struck a proper chord for me because of it's balance.


And you too...enjoy Marvel Heroes! Just don't advertise it as something it isn't. MH is a fine game that will appeal to fans of the theme. It has a good dose of luck and can feel bogged down at times...never quite reaching the level of feeling epic/heroic. But with players willing to forgive the game of its flaws it is a pretty unique experience.

-MMM
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Matthew M
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moss_icon wrote:
maka wrote:
divisionbyzorro wrote:
maka wrote:
Yeah, do not believe them! This is an excellent game, no matter what a vocal minority says!


I don't think it's the minority...50/50 at best



Watching the ratings graph seems to say otherwise. Most of the ratings are grouped between 6-8 with many more 8s than 6s...

-Jorge


exactly.

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/graphstats/14808


I guess it depends on your definition of naysayer. 7 is the 50/50 point...half of people rate it higher, half lower. I'd say 50/50 is fairly accurate. 6 is no great score, and with the vast majority of scores being huddled in the 6-8 range, the graph pretty clearly shows MH to be on the mediocre side of good gaming (which is still better than being on the upper side of bad gaming).

-MMM
 
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I had a response ready to go...and then I read what Octavian had to say. So basically my response now is...

"What he said" ninja
 
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Jorge Arroyo
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Octavian wrote:

I guess it depends on your definition of naysayer. 7 is the 50/50 point...half of people rate it higher, half lower. I'd say 50/50 is fairly accurate. 6 is no great score, and with the vast majority of scores being huddled in the 6-8 range, the graph pretty clearly shows MH to be on the mediocre side of good gaming (which is still better than being on the upper side of bad gaming).

-MMM


Maybe I don't understand the rankings, but to me, if the game had an average of around 5, then I'd accept the 50/50 statement. The fact that its average is 7 to me means there are more people that like the game than people that don't...

Your description of how good the game is is much more reasonable (and coherent with the game's rating) than what the haters are saying. Those haters are a minority, else, we'd be seeing many more low ratings (1-4).
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Alexander B.
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maka wrote:
True, the rulebook is not very good, but a good rulebook does not make a good game, and a bad rulebook doesn't mean a game is bad. Many games I enjoy have (or had) terrible rulebooks (Return of the Heroes, Magic Realm 1st edition, etc...)

Once you get past the rulebook, there's an excellent game there.

-Jorge


For me, a rulebook that doesn't even cover obvious card interactions and timing is not just bad, it is really bad--actually, it is totally unacceptable.

If you enjoy that sort of hell; that's up to you, but to claim it isn't a severe problem is a bit silly.

If everything was clear (or even most things were clear), I'd probably give the game a 7... isn't ok, not really to my taste. Seems to come down to the fairly tired old "stop the leader" dynamic that most MP games that don't actively try to fight that do.
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