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Hannibal: Rome vs. Carthage» Forums » Rules

Subject: Ranking Generals rss

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Guillaume Bergeron
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Hi!

I’m seeking some enlightment regarding the rule 9.3 (rank).

First, when figuring out which Generals outranks the other, which Rating should I compare : Strategy or Battle? The rulebook strangely doesn’t specify.

Secondly, what does «outranking» means when it comes to numeral value? Is a 3 outranking a 2 or the other way around?

For example, if both Hanno (Str 3, Bat 2) and Hasdrubal (Str 2, Bat 3) were on the same space who would be the ranking General and why? My current understanding leads me to believe Hanno would be because of his Strategy Rating of 3.

My confusion mainly emanates from the sentence «Hannibal outranks all other Carthaginian Generals». Does he outrank all of them because of his Strategy Rating of 1, or because of his Battle Rating of 4, or he simply does so because he is the almighty Hannibal of Carthage?

Thanks to you fellow gamers and long live Valley Games and M. Simonitch!
 
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Dave Eisen
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For Rome, Consuls outrank proconsuls.

For Carthage, Hannibal outranks everyone else.

If neither of these two rules apply, the player decides which of his two generals should be in charge, although in some cases the opponent gets to roll a "change of control" die roll to overrule this. More precisely, if Rome attacks Carthage with two consuls, Carthage can roll to change the Roman player's leader in battle. If Carthage attacks a stack that includes both consuls, Carthage *must* make that die roll.


 
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Niko Ruf
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Rank has absolutely nothing to do with the numerical ratings.

For Carthage, Hannibal outranks any other general, i.e. as long as an army contains him, he must be the leader. If the big H is absent, the Carthaginian player may choose freely among all generals accompanying an army.

For Rome, consuls outrank proconsuls (including Scipio Africanus). If both consuls are with the same army, the Roman player chooses who is the leader, except that there may be a change of command roll before battle.
 
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Richard Young
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Looks correct to me. Tricky bit is when must the Roman player declare leader/subordinate relationships and how long do they last? There has been some discussion here about a situation when one Roman general is currently "in charge" but you want to switch leadership to another in order to attempt an intercept with the whole army because of the different tactical/initiative rating combinations. This would be a temporary reassignment and would likely revert when the army is to be activated for movement or whatever.

The liberal interpretation (that I currently favor) is that the Roman player can declare the leadership to be (within the consul/pro-consul constraints of course) whatever he wants it to be whenever such a decision is required. But there are other interpretations: 1) when the army is formed the leader is declared and can only be changed when required by the re-arranging of deck chairs between turns and consular rules require it; 2) when the Roman player is the active player, and before any armies are activated, leaders are declared and last for the duration of the turn; or, 3) just for the specific activation. Most interpretations do not allow for any changes to army leadership when the Roman player is inactive (which is the most important issue to my mind). I'm not sure anything definitive has been proclaimed in this area (if it has please chime in!).

Note that we are talking about those circumstances when the leadership of the whole army is at issue and more than one general is present. Again, within consular constraints, you can split off any subgoup you want in order to leave the main group with the fellow you prefer as the situation evolves but that's not the situation I would like to see clarified.
 
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sunday silence
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I think the who's in charge problem only becomes a dilemma when their are two Roman Consuls in the same space. At least that is what most of the talk on Consimworld was about.

I think they came to some rough understanding that: if the Roman player was making some sort of march or intercept he could declare which consul was in charge. Obviously he would pick the better one.

But if there was a battle to be had. Then a dice or coin has to be rolled/flipped in order to determine if he has to change leaders. On the basis that the Romans alternated leadership and there is no way they could know there is a battle coming.

I think this is similar to what Richard said above, but with the proviso the Roman doesnt get to pick his general for a battle, that has to be a coin flip.
 
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Richard Young
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Similar, yes. My understanding is that when battle is joined the Roman declares who the leader is (when defending, because when attacking you've already designated a leader for the activation in the first place) and, in the case of the two Consols situation, the Carthaginian may (or could be required to) roll a die to determine if the leadership flips or stays as declared. Amounts to the same thing as a coin flip I guess (50-50 chance either way). The change of command die roll is optional if the Romans attack the Carthaginians, but is mandatory if the Romans are defending (18.2 of VG version rules).

This suggests to me that the Roman declares who is in command and who is subordinate at the time a decision is required (and the Carthaginian may be able to change it). The rules don't address this exact situation but I would prefer to be able to declare one Consol for activation (better initiative rating and I just want to move somewhere), but to be able to change the declaration to the other (better battle rating) when defending or attempting an interception with the same army in the Carthaginian's turn. I believe there has been discussion about the amount of flexibility you have when inactive, as some believe the same commander who finishes the activation must remain in charge until just before the next activation with that same army...
 
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Read the Errata from General 31,3. The Consular you last chose and left on the board is the Superior. Romans don't get to change the Superior prior to the Carthaginians roll.

Bubslug wrote:
Similar, yes. My understanding is that when battle is joined the Roman declares who the leader is (when defending, because when attacking you've already designated a leader for the activation in the first place) and, in the case of the two Consols situation, the Carthaginian may (or could be required to) roll a die to determine if the leadership flips or stays as declared. Amounts to the same thing as a coin flip I guess (50-50 chance either way). The change of command die roll is optional if the Romans attack the Carthaginians, but is mandatory if the Romans are defending (18.2 of VG version rules).

This suggests to me that the Roman declares who is in command and who is subordinate at the time a decision is required (and the Carthaginian may be able to change it). The rules don't address this exact situation but I would prefer to be able to declare one Consol for activation (better initiative rating and I just want to move somewhere), but to be able to change the declaration to the other (better battle rating) when defending or attempting an interception with the same army in the Carthaginian's turn. I believe there has been discussion about the amount of flexibility you have when inactive, as some believe the same commander who finishes the activation must remain in charge until just before the next activation with that same army...
 
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Richard Young
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OK, I guess that's why some folks believed it then. Thanks Glenn. Shouldn't have auctioned off all my old Generals...
 
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I would have hoped Valley had blended the Errata rules into the overall rule book, but I can see they haven't.

I'll repaste them here just for reference. It's still a bit indirect, but these points show you must have an activated general in order to swap generals, and the superior you ended with sticks until you activate again.

------------------------------------------------------------------

8.5
May an activated commander yield command of an army to a subordinate who continues to move, siege or battle?

No, only the activated general may move the army. However, if the activated general enters a space with a friendly general who outranks him and if a battle or siege takes place, the SUPERIOR COMMANDER MUST take command of the siege or battle.

8.6
Must the activated general remain in command if ending his move with another general? If not, when is the change accomplished?

No, the activated general is allowed to subordinated himself to the inactive general of equal rank after all movement, sieges and battle are finished - in effect, as the last act of the general.


 
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Philip Thomas
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Surely it is irrelevant which of the two consuls the Romans declare is in charge when defending? Either way there is a 50% chance it will be the other general who fights, so there is no difference in the odds.
 
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Richard Young
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In the matter of who's in charge of the defense yes, but what about the interception question? The FAQ suggests that the Army Commander must be whoever was left in charge at the end of the last activation of that army, and that person will be the only one allowed to react during the Carthaginian's turn (if the whole army is to be involved), and further, will have to be the one whose rating will be used in order to activate that same army in the future (whereupon changes could then be made). Sure, a subordinate could be dispatched with a detachment to intercept but that's not we've been talking about.

It's not how we've been playing it but I can see using the rule now that we've been shown it.
 
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