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Subject: Missile Envy to get China card? rss

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Shannon L
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Opponent plays Missile Envy. Other then the China Card my next highest card is 3OP. Must I give my opponent the China Card?
 
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Geoffrey Engelstein
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No. You don't give up the China Card for missile envy.

Geoff
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Dave Rubin
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engelstein wrote:
No. You don't give up the China Card for missile envy


To elaborate, China Card is not *in* your hand, and thus cannot be pulled by Missile Envy.
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Josh
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dirubin wrote:
engelstein wrote:
No. You don't give up the China Card for missile envy


To elaborate, China Card is not *in* your hand, and thus cannot be pulled by Missile Envy.

And moreover, to quote the rules:

9.8 Play of ‘The China Card’ can never be compelled by events or a
shortage of cards during the action rounds.
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Kevin Brown
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JoshBot wrote:
dirubin wrote:
engelstein wrote:
No. You don't give up the China Card for missile envy


To elaborate, China Card is not *in* your hand, and thus cannot be pulled by Missile Envy.

And moreover, to quote the rules:

9.8 Play of ‘The China Card’ can never be compelled by events or a
shortage of cards during the action rounds.


Play of it, no. There are events that can force you to pass it to your opponent, however.
 
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Josh
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pilight wrote:
Play of it, no. There are events that can force you to pass it to your opponent, however.

Yes, you are exactly correct, and I guess the language is such that the rules quote doe not exactly apply to the OPs question. However, everyone is in agreement (correctly) that you can't get the China Card via Missile Envy.
 
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Kevin Brown
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JoshBot wrote:
pilight wrote:
Play of it, no. There are events that can force you to pass it to your opponent, however.

Yes, you are exactly correct, and I guess the language is such that the rules quote doe not exactly apply to the OPs question. However, everyone is in agreement (correctly) that you can't get the China Card via Missile Envy.


I concur that Missile Envy cannot force your opponent to hand you the China Card and that you may not hand over the China Card if Missile Envy is played upon you, even if you want to.
 
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Shannon L
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I really have no idea what would be the correct ruling. Is there a way to get an official ruling on it by Jason Matthews?

My Opponent on ACTS had this to say:

rules say:
9.3 When 'The China Card' is played, it is immediately handed to your opponent face down. It may not be played again by your opponent this turn. At the end of the turn, it is flipped face up, ready for your opponent to play.

The key word is HANDED,i understand it means : goes to the hand.

9.4 If 'The China Card' is passed as a result of an Event, the card is passed face up and may be played by the new owning player during the same turn.

This rules say that the china card is not immune from event, this rules not specify which event, so it means ALL event that cause a card to pass are good

Furthermore the rules:
9.5 'The China Card' may not be played:
. during the Headline Phase,
. if it prevents the play of a Scoring card, or
. as a discard required by an Event.
and
9.8 Play of 'The China Card' can never be compelled by events or a shortage of cards during the action rounds.

cannot be claimed as you are not discarding nor playing the card, you are giving it to opponent, and in TS those are all different actions, as you can see also in ACTS where there are different command to click with the mouse to choose the action..
 
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Josh
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Although I cannot find a citation to prove the point, I can absolutely guarantee you that Missile Envy cannot cause the China Card to swap players.
 
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Philip Thomas
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Alright, why don't you ask your opponent what he thinks happens after you give him the China card through Missile Envy.

Missile Envy works differently depending on the type of the card. For mixed cards, which the China card undoubtedly is, the event occurs immediately.

Except there is no event linked to the China card. The China card can only ever be played for Ops and has a special ability linked to that.

Ok, so the event can't be played: the approach used for similar cases (e.g. NATO where the event doesn't meet the prerequisites) is that the card is played but nothing happens: certainly your opponent doesn't get the Ops.

Ok, so the China card is played by your opponent but nothing happens. When the China card is played it gets passed, so the China card is now back with you, face down. And you have to play Missile Envy for Operations.

I suspect your opponent may be less than keen on his interpretation once you take him through the logical consequences.

(The above is merely a reductio ad absurdum: like everyone else here I am completely sure the China Card cannot be taken through Missile Envy).
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Dave Rubin
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Quote:
The key word is HANDED,i understand it means : goes to the hand.


In light of all the other text pertaining to the China Card, I find this a comical juxtoposition of common usage of the word (the verb) and game terminology (the noun). If a card is to be DISCARDED, does he understand that he is supposed to throw it in the trash? When cards are DRAWN, does he require a sketchpad?

So... what does *he* make of 9.8?
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Philip Thomas
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Putting my point a little less agressively. Rule 9.8 says play of the China card can never be compelled. If Missile Envy could effect the China Cared it would compel play of the China Card (because Missile Envy causes the event drawn to occur, not merely for it to be placed in your opponent's hand). Ergo, Missile Envy cannot effect the China Card.
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Kevin Brown
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Philip Thomas wrote:
Alright, why don't you ask your opponent what he thinks happens after you give him the China card through Missile Envy.

Missile Envy works differently depending on the type of the card. For mixed cards, which the China card undoubtedly is, the event occurs immediately.

Except there is no event linked to the China card. The China card can only ever be played for Ops and has a special ability linked to that.

Ok, so the event can't be played: the approach used for similar cases (e.g. NATO where the event doesn't meet the prerequisites) is that the card is played but nothing happens: certainly your opponent doesn't get the Ops.

Ok, so the China card is played by your opponent but nothing happens. When the China card is played it gets passed, so the China card is now back with you, face down. And you have to play Missile Envy for Operations.

I suspect your opponent may be less than keen on his interpretation once you take him through the logical consequences.

(The above is merely a reductio ad absurdum: like everyone else here I am completely sure the China Card cannot be taken through Missile Envy).


If the China Card was face up before Missile Envy was played, it might still be worthwhile to do this if it was legal.

It could be argued that Missile Envy can force your opponent to give you the China Card but can't make you play it, since play of it can't be forced by events but passing of it can. That's parsing it a little thin even by my Rules Lawyery standards, but it's not an impossible interpretation.
 
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Steve Bauer
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Philip Thomas wrote:
Putting my point a little less agressively. Rule 9.8 says play of the China card can never be compelled. If Missile Envy could effect the China Cared it would compel play of the China Card (because Missile Envy causes the event drawn to occur, not merely for it to be placed in your opponent's hand). Ergo, Missile Envy cannot effect the China Card.


I think this is a stretch. The meaning of 9.8 is that you can not be forced to play the china card. If missile envy were to apply to the China card (I do not believe that it does) then your opponent knew when he played missile even he would get the China card and play it. He was not forced to play it, he choose to.

Also it is not terrible relevant as the card effect would override the rule. If there was a card that said take the China card from your opponent and immediately play it for op points you could not argue that 9.8 prevents this card effect from being played.

Also I don't know how solid the China Card has no event argument is. The bonus op point makes it different from any other card in terms of the effect of playing it for ops. You could argue that this is the event of the card.

I think the key is that the China Card is not in your hand, and therefore not subject to missile envy. If it were it would also be subject to Five Year Plan, Terrorism, Grain Sale and any other hand targeting events.
 
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Philip Thomas
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No, I think 9.8 does apply to text on cards.

If 9.8 doesn't apply to text on cards, it is completely meaningless, since all events are text on cards. In fact, Missile Envy is the only card I can think of that compels play of an event. But if there were some other card which said "force your opponent to play a named card of your card if he has that card" (for example) the China card would be protected by 9.8.

What else could 9.8 mean?
 
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Kevin Brown
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Five Year Plan also compels play of an event, but only if it's a US event.

As to whether the rule that says events overrule the rules overrides the rule about a card not being affected by events, that's an issue for philosophers rather than rules lawyers.
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Jason Matthews
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Shannon, sorry I had read your post some time ago. The answer was correctly provided by the collective wisdom of the folder, and I did not realize the thread was ongoing.

I believe your opponent has engaged in a bit of outcome-based interpretation. While you might find some room to quibble with wording, the intent of rule 9.8 is clear. You cannot be compelled to play the China card. While I have gotten this question many times (I think its in the FAQ too), I don't recall having ever been asked the question by someone who had noticed rule 9.8

In any event good luck with your game.

Jason
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