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Race for the Galaxy» Forums » General

Subject: i like "drafting" better than "leeching" rss

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Dave J McWeasely
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A lot of people use the term "leeching" to describe the process of taking advantage of another player's role selection. I much prefer the term "drafting", as in racing, particularly bicycle racing: following closely behind another racer to take advantage of their slipstream. The first racer has to do the hard work of shoving the air out of the way (e.g. play settle), and the second player is there to take advantage with less effort (free to choose another role).

Leeches are gross, and anyway they're not peers of the animals they leech off of.
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Sean McCarthy
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It's too bad that "drafting" also refers to selection from a pool like how roles work in PR and SJ.
 
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David desJardins
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I share your dislike for the term "leeching", and I also think the analogy is wrong---leeching weakens the victim, while in RFTG you are taking advanatage of their choices but generally not to their direct detriment). But, as Sean says, "drafting" is a common gaming term that means something completely different (and derived from a very different meaning of "draft" than the bicycling meaning), so it would be way too confusing to use that word here.
 
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Scott Russell
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How about "mooching?" It's somewhat less objectionable than leeching, but still has the weakening aspect.

 
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Eric Brosius
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My favorite 18xx game for six players is two games of 1846 with three players each.
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How about "slipstreaming"?
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Edward
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"Piggybacking"?
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Brad Brooks
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tailgating?
 
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Lou Seelbach
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The econ term "Positive Externalities"?
 
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Wei-Hwa Huang
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DaviddesJ wrote:
I also think the analogy is wrong---leeching weakens the victim, while in RFTG you are taking advanatage of their choices but generally not to their direct detriment


Hmm. By taking action X, you gain 8 points on all other players. Now let's suppose I "leech" off of you for 2 points; now when you choose action X, you gain 6 points on me, and I gain 2 points on all other players.

That seems to me to fulfill the definition of "weakening the victim"; perhaps not in terms of absolute points, but certainly in terms of relative advantage and game-win probability.
 
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Lou Seelbach
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onigame wrote:
DaviddesJ wrote:
I also think the analogy is wrong---leeching weakens the victim, while in RFTG you are taking advanatage of their choices but generally not to their direct detriment


Hmm. By taking action X, you gain 8 points on all other players. Now let's suppose I "leech" off of you for 2 points; now when you choose action X, you gain 6 points on me, and I gain 2 points on all other players.

That seems to me to fulfill the definition of "weakening the victim"; perhaps not in terms of absolute points, but certainly in terms of relative advantage and game-win probability.


Which victim? The one who choose the action on his own free will? Doesn't sound like the definition of a victime to me...
 
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David desJardins
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onigame wrote:
That seems to me to fulfill the definition of "weakening the victim"; perhaps not in terms of absolute points, but certainly in terms of relative advantage and game-win probability.


Leeches are parasites. They don't just reduce my "relative health", they reduce my actual health. They suck my blood, in order to get stronger, while making me weaker.

An organism that takes advantage of some byproduct of my activity, to benefit itself without benefiting or harming me, is a commensal symbiote, not a parasite.
 
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Eric Raabe
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"Milking"?
 
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Wei-Hwa Huang
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DaviddesJ wrote:
onigame wrote:
That seems to me to fulfill the definition of "weakening the victim"; perhaps not in terms of absolute points, but certainly in terms of relative advantage and game-win probability.


Leeches are parasites. They don't just reduce my "relative health", they reduce my actual health. They suck my blood, in order to get stronger, while making me weaker.

An organism that takes advantage of some byproduct of my activity, to benefit itself without benefiting or harming me, is a commensal symbiote, not a parasite.


Clearly, me playing a card in a game is not going to affect your actual health, unless perhaps I fling the card at your face hard enough to bruise you. Nor is it going to actually suck your blood So I think it's pretty clear that in this context, "leech" is intended as an analogy.

I think we disagree on what your health in the real world is analogous to in an RftG game. You seem to think of "victory point total" as analogous to "health", while I think of "chances of winning the game" as analogous to "health."
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David desJardins
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onigame wrote:
Clearly, me playing a card in a game is not going to affect your actual health, unless perhaps I fling the card at your face hard enough to bruise you. Nor is it going to actually suck your blood So I think it's pretty clear that in this context, "leech" is intended as an analogy.


No, it's a metaphor.

Quote:
I think we disagree on what your health in the real world is analogous to in an RftG game. You seem to think of "victory point total" as analogous to "health", while I think of "chances of winning the game" as analogous to "health."


Well, your characterization of my position is overly simplistic, because there's more to "health" than just victory points. Obviously, if you weakened me by destroying goods on my planets, or stealing cards from my hand, that would be an injury, too.

I do think that, while the object of the game is to do better than the other players, that doesn't mean that "me doing badly" is exactly the same thing as "you doing well". To go back to the analogy of the bike race, that someone else mentioned, if I am drafting behind you, then that reduces the effort I need to exert to ride at that speed, but it has no (significant) effect on the amount of effort you need to exert to ride at that speed. So, in your analysis, you would say that I am "leeching" your effort. But I don't think most other people would think of it that way. In the bike race, just as in the card game, I'm not hurting you. I'm just helping myself. If I attached a tow rope to your bike, forcing you to pull me along, at the expense of your own effort, then I think most people would see that quite differently than if I just help myself by drafting you. But your terminology treats those two acts in exactly the same way.
 
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Ray Thomson
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Dwighting... making the best of a less than advantageous situation...

Smithersing...

Synergising...

 
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Chad Ellis
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From now on, I'm calling it "commensal symbioting".
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David desJardins
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Chad_Ellis wrote:
From now on, I'm calling it "commensal symbioting".


The noun would be "commensal symbiosis", or just "commensalism". (Un)fortunately, the English language doesn't seem to have a verb meaning "to act as a symbiote". laugh
 
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Stephe Thomas
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Quote:
Leeches are parasites. They don't just reduce my "relative health", they reduce my actual health. They suck my blood, in order to get stronger, while making me weaker.


Leeches are still used occasionally in Western medicine and when used that way presumably promote health, at least when used on patients not of too squeamish a disposition. I believe that they promote blood flow in the affected part of the anatomy, and thus aid healing of wounds. The ones used medicinally are free from disease parasites, unlike the ones you collect when wading through tropical swamps and the like, so are freer of the usual unpleasant side effects.
 
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Scott Russell
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Stephe beat me to it. I was going to say that leeching purported isn't always a bad thing. So calling it medicinally leeching....
 
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Scott Russell
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What do they call the other bettors when someone is rolling craps?
They benefit (about half the time) by dint of someone else's actions without harming the person.
 
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Chad Ellis
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qzhdad wrote:
What do they call the other bettors when someone is rolling craps?
They benefit (about half the time) by dint of someone else's actions without harming the person.


I don't think that would be an apt analogy because they benefit from the random outcome of a person's actions rather than from the specific choice/action taken. (Sure, the person has to choose to roll the dice, but it's the die outcome of X that causes the benefit.)

Maybe we should call up the Tour de France folks and ask them to create a replacement phrase for drafting that hasn't already been used by gamers?
 
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Curt Collins
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I like "role raping"

"Hey!, stop role raping me!"
 
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Alan
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The first thing that came to mind were remoras (aka "suckerfish"). The omniscent Wikipedia describes a remora's relationship with its host as commensalism, more specifically phoresy.

Next time you play Race, when you see someone "leeching" or "drafting" your actions, I heartily recommend you yell out "SUCKERFISH!" and slap them in the face with a fish (preferably fresh since frozen would just be misinterpreted).
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Jennifer Schlickbernd
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I like drafting better than leeching too. And just like in the 'real world' we can use the word in more than one way. The NFL has drafts for players, for example, while NASCAR drivers draft one another. ESPN doesn't seem to have a problem with it and I know we are at least as smart as they are
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Jeff Binning
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"Appropriate" or "arrogate"?
 
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