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Subject: Be My Valentine 5 Day Math Trade - OLWLG Use Required rss

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Jeff Michaud
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The Results!
Well it's definitely no record for percentage of items traded...

Official results (TradeMax output) 276 total trades

Result summary by user (w/links into trading system)

The list of the most wanted, and the unwanted items

Official wants (input to TradeMax)

Everyone with games traded make sure you have them marked "for trade" in your collection to the trade proposals can go through (for those with non-game items, make sure you have "outside the scope of BGG" marked "for trade")

Note: there were 3 pairs of direct trades, you guys could have skipped the MT for those 6 items and just make the deals direct )

Important!
for this math trade want lists will be submitted only by using the online wantlist generator/editor ... you may want to make sure you can login to that tool (no password required) if you aren't one of the 641+ who have already.

Also Very Important!
You must read the Limits & Rules below before joining in on this math trade!

Geeklist: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/28913
Request (games you want to see) Geeklist: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/28977

Deadlines:
Submissions (including sweeteners): Thursday, Feb 14th, 3pm Eastern Time
Want lists due: Friday, Feb 15th, 7pm Eastern Time
Results posted: Friday, Feb 15th, 8pm Eastern Time

Limits: (per person)
* No-limit on the number of real game items
* Max of 3 non-game items (that includes geek gold, gift certificates, etc)
* Geekgold offerings must be at least 40 GG

Rules:
1. * Non-game items must be added as "Outside the Scope of BGG" (game id 23953) or "Miscellaneous Game Accessory" (game id 5985), and you must within (at the bottom) of the item description put a "+altname+ Short Name Here -altname-" (minus the quotes) where "Short Name Here" for example would be "125 Geek Gold", or "$40 ThoughtHammer Gift Card", etc.

2. * "sweeteners" are to be listed using either the GAMEID formatting (prefered, example Hansa) or a link to the game's page (this will look like http://www.boardgamegeek.com/game/8989). If you don't use this format your sweeteners won't show up in the OLWLG properly.

3. * You must accurately describe your game's condition, language, edition, etc. If you do not then the condition will be assumed to be "like new" and complete, English language version. Do not simply say "as pictured" as it's not always obvious.

4. * Traders from all countries are allowed.

5. * Specify your restrictions on shipping in your listing. If you don't it will be assumed you'll ship worlwide for free. (Note: if you list "mirror" shipping, or a limit to how much you will be pay toward the shipping, then you must state where you would be shipping from (zipcode for USA locations).

6. * If you are offering games that you do not have in your possession (ie. that you'll order and have shipped from an online retailer if it trades), you must state in your description that is what you are doing.

7. * No Geek-gold or Gift certificate arbitrage... that means you are not allowed to attempt to trade your geekgold for someone elses geekgold offering, or attempt to trade your gift certificate for someone elses gift certificate offering. However attempting to trade geekgold for a gift certificate or vice versa is allowed.

8. * I reserve the right to remove games from the list for whatever reason (though unlikely). If you are on the bad traders list, your games will be removed

9. * Use this forum thread for questions & discussions of this math trade (though for questions on individual items as comments to the specific geeklist item)

If you are unfamiliar with math trades, please read the BGG wiki page at http://www.boardgamegeek.com/wiki/page/Math_Trades

By posting an entry on this list, you agree to abide both by the general math trade guidelines and by those specific to this math trade.

Trade Resolver: TradeMaximizer (trying to maximize number of trades)
* Duplicate Protection
* Linear Priorities

Note: only errors by the moderator will invalidate the results. You are also responsible for checking the full set of want lists when they are posted as soon as possible (and definitely before the results are posted) for any "obvious" errors.

Note: in the case that there is a problem after the results are posted, at most it will only invalidate the affected trade chain(s) and not the entire results set. In addition if the problem can be resolved by the most directly affected party or parties, then that is perfectly acceptable.

Note: you can start putting together your want list(s) immediately, even before you enter your own items into the math trade, so 1 day should be plenty of time for folks to finalize their want lists.

Note: why is using the OLWLG required for this math trade? Click here to read the long reason why.
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Jeff Michaud
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Submit your wants by....
Ok, deadline for adding items into the math trade has passed. The summary has been generated and online submission turned on!

You'll see two additional tabs now in step 4 of the OLWLG

"How to Submit Your Lists"
this is essnetially the same as the "Summary" tab but adds in the form (button) to submit your wants. You can freely re-submit as often as you like up until the deadline (Fri Feb 15 7pm ET).

-and-

"Official Format"
This is what is actually going to be fed into TradeMaximizer. While you are not going to be cut/pasting this, it's another means for you to verify your wants are what you think they should be. Ie. if you see dummy items with no wants, of your non-dummies not using your dummy items, etc.
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Jeff Michaud
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Some info on duplicate protection in the OLWLG
1. the items you want protection from duplicates should ONLY be wanted by the appropriate dummy item.

Ie. in the row for each item you want protection on, there should be only one box checked, and that's under the column that corresponds with the appropriate dummy item.

All protected items should have a light gray background. If you see any rows with this background color ....

And under the table a "Warning! Duplicate Protection".....

That means you may want to double check that row... it's a real item wanted by one or more of your real items... but is also on the want list for one of your dummy items... meaning you may not be using duplicate protection correctly.

2. Your real items (vs. your dummy items) should want your appropriate dummy items.

I've also set the background of items under column 2 that are dummy items to have a light green background to highlight your dummy items better (you'll also notice in column one their item #'s are not numbers but the dummy short names you gave them)...

... these are the rows where you should check the boxes corresponding to the real items of yours that you are willing to give in trade for it.

Also the tool in step 4's "Summary" tab will now have a big headline "Warning! Dummy Items Not Being Used" if you have dummy items you created but none of your real items want them.

Keep in mind that even if you use the "Create Dummies the Easy Way?" form and have checked (which is checked by default) the option "Check here to auto add
corresponding game items to the pseudo items"... that this only does what it says, it creates the dummy item(s) and adds the corresponding real items you want as wants to the newly created dummy item(s)....

... it does not edit any of your existing wants.
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Jeff Michaud
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"Values" and their relationship to priorities in TradeMax
The following I've cut/pasted from my post to a prior math trade....

You can indeed override the default ordering... but 1st note...

The order you see your wanted items in step 4 is the order, from top to bottom, that they will end up on your want lists. Ie. your most wanted item(s) are at the top, least wanted at the bottom.

Most wanted === Highest valued === Highest Priority

That said... if you want to override the way the OLWLG orders items...

... in step 3 when "add"'ing items, at the bottom is a small text box for an "Optional value". Remember, the higher the value, the higher the priority (the higher you want it). Items you don't assign a value default to an internal value of 0.

... in step 4 in Table/edit tab, you'll notice a small text box in column 2 after the username of the person offering each item. You can enter values in these boxes as well and then Confirm Changes. The page will reload and resorted based on those values.

Note that you can also enter negative values. This way if want to leave the default ordering for most items, but want to move some items to the bottom after those assign them negative values. Similiarly with postitive values... they will show up on top of any items with no value assigned.

Also note... "values" are simply relative to each other. Example, if you had 5 items you had add'ed in step 3 and assigned them values 200, 50, 30, 25, -20 .... that's going to give them the same "priority" order as if had just assigned them "values" 5, 4, 3, 2, 1.

Just remember, the order from top to bottom in step 4 is the order they will end up on your want list from left to right, which is highest priority to lowest priority when TradeMaximizer reads them.

The "summary" tab in step 4, and in the confirmation geekmail you receive it you "submit" your wants via the OLWLG also show your wants for each item in the same order.
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Shawn Simas
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Dang... and all my games are in with the Toronto No-Ship trade
 
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David Thompson
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Which "steps" will be used for priorities (SMALL-STEP and BIG-STEP)? Or will you be using the default values?

Thanks!
 
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J.L. Robert
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I'm all tapped out at the moment. Good luck, everyone!
 
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Mischa D. Krilov
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Remember, it's bad form to delete any item you add to the trade list.

Of course, the OLWLG doesn't mind so much, just us poor humans.
 
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Ryan Gatti
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I didn't see paypal/cash in the limits/rules (exclusions). Does this mean we can include 3 items of paypal/cash in the Outside the Scope of BGG category? (Or are these generally excluded from all Math Trades by some larger BGG policy?)

Also, is there a link to a thread where the arguments against GeekGold and Gift Certificate arbitrage are discussed? (I figure if they are explicitly excluded in the Rules, there must be a lengthy thread somewhere that I can review so that I don't burden this forum with old and rehashed arguments.).
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Ryan Gatti
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How does mirror shipping work when the other side is an electronic item like GeekGold or a Gift Certificate (which, obviously, ship free worldwide)?

(It would seem logical, to me, that this implies that the mirror shipping is also free to electronic item providers in the same way that mirror shipping doesn't discriminate between a card game or Tide of Iron offering free worldwide shipping. But I wanted to confirm that this is the commonly accepted interpretation of mirror shipping in this circumstance.)
 
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Lou Seelbach
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I would like to know if Paypal is allowed as an item.
 
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Lou Seelbach
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rgatti wrote:

Also, is there a link to a thread where the arguments against GeekGold and Gift Certificate arbitrage are discussed? (I figure if they are explicitly excluded in the Rules, there must be a lengthy thread somewhere that I can review so that I don't burden this forum with old and rehashed arguments.).


http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/219034/

The argument was rehashed in another math trade about a month after the above thread was active. I don't recall off the top of my head which MT it was.
 
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Ryan Gatti
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Lou-Dawg wrote:
I would like to know if Paypal is allowed as an item.


Given the rules about arbitrage and the concern about blurring the trading/selling boundary, I'd guess that PayPal is allowed, but can only have GeekGold items as wants (since having games as wants would invoke the trade/sell debate and Gift Certificates would invoke the arbitrage rule, leaving only GeekGold. Okay, maybe DVDs and other things truly outside the scope of BGG would also be viable wants.).

But that's just my guess based on a consistent interpretation of the posted rules.

Personally, I find the idea of allowing items but restricting the wants of those items to be objectionable (aside from obviously not allowing a person to list their own items as wants, but TradeMaximizer already does that), but I allow that that decision is within the rights of the trade organizer to make and enforce.
 
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Ryan Gatti
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Lou-Dawg wrote:
rgatti wrote:

Also, is there a link to a thread where the arguments against GeekGold and Gift Certificate arbitrage are discussed? (I figure if they are explicitly excluded in the Rules, there must be a lengthy thread somewhere that I can review so that I don't burden this forum with old and rehashed arguments.).


http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/219034/

The argument was rehashed in another math trade about a month after the above thread was active. I don't recall off the top of my head which MT it was.


Thank you for providing the link. It greatly clarified many of the concerns I had not fully appreciated.

Having read that, I think a better solution than restricting wants for certain items would have been to fix the allowable increments of GeekGold and Gift Certificate items (and, if PayPal/cash is ever allowed, similarly restrict those increments as well). Along with the restricted number of non-game items, this would limit the risk of long, micro-transaction chains that appear to be the most objectionable part of non-game arbitrage. (Since game and value arbitrage clearly happen).

Example: Only allow Gift Certificates in $25 increments (same for PayPal/cash, if allowed). Only allow GeekGold in 50GG increments (this also nicely caps the lower boundary at 50GG).

Yes, some arbitrage may still occur, but this gives wide enough gaps that multiple games may adequately fit into the space otherwise filled by micro-arbitrage transactions. Therefore, non-game arbitrage doesn't occur because a longer game chain exists.
 
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Adam Lipkin
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Jeff, out of curiosity, does the OLWLG have a way of processing alt tags for sweeteners?
 
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Could someone walk me through the OLWLG method of using duplicate protection?
 
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Ernie Lai
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shadow9d9 wrote:
Could someone walk me through the OLWLG method of using duplicate protection?


the way i do it is:

before clicking 'add' for any items in step 3, skip over to step 4 (edit wants) and click the 'duplicate protection' button. create all the pseudo items for any duplicate games you want (i know this already because i keep track of games i'm interested in notepad as items are added to the geeklist). then go back to step 3, and click 'add' for all the games you're interested in. if it's a duplicate you only add it to the pseudo item, otherwise you add it to whichever of your games you want to. then when you're done you go back to step 4 and click boxes for your pseudo item to add to whichever of your games that you want.

in the end all duplicate games will only have 1 checkbox in their row which will be the pseudo item, all other entries including the pseudoitems themselves will have checks for whichever games you're willing to trade for them
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Jeff Michaud
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themilkcrate wrote:
Which "steps" will be used for priorities (SMALL-STEP and BIG-STEP)? Or will you be using the default values?

defaults on those (according to TradeMax wiki page that's 1 and 9).

Note that BIG-STEP is not relevant in this math trade.

edit: I should also say that the only reason I enable priorities in TradeMax is to make it more deterministic. Otherwise the order the lists are placed in the input file plays a bigger role in breaking "ties". And the order by the way is alphabetical by BGG username.
 
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Jake Kiser
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Jeff, not that I am complaining at all, but I am curious how you justify trading so many games all at once?

I love that you're putting so many games up for trade, but this is a question pertinent to myself. I'm wondering if it's worth it, dollar-wise, for me to list a bunch of games.

Do people typically try to "trade up" to recoup the lost shipping money?

Any advice is appreciated.
 
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Jeff Michaud
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rgatti wrote:
I didn't see paypal/cash in the limits/rules (exclusions). Does this mean we can include 3 items of paypal/cash in the Outside the Scope of BGG category? (Or are these generally excluded from all Math Trades by some larger BGG policy?)

Lou-Dawg wrote:
I would like to know if Paypal is allowed as an item.

No paypal (or for that matter any cash instruments, ie. paypal, money orders, personal checks, money wires, actual cash, etc).

rgatti wrote:
Also, is there a link to a thread where the arguments against GeekGold and Gift Certificate arbitrage are discussed? (I figure if they are explicitly excluded in the Rules, there must be a lengthy thread somewhere that I can review so that I don't burden this forum with old and rehashed arguments.).

You are right, it's often rehashed Most recent discussion is in the thread "next math trade". That thread also has a discussion about gift certificates, cash, etc
 
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Jeff Michaud
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jammasterjake wrote:
Jeff, not that I am complaining at all, but I am curious how you justify trading so many games all at once?

I love that you're putting so many games up for trade, but this is a question pertinent to myself. I'm wondering if it's worth it, dollar-wise, for me to list a bunch of games.

Do people typically try to "trade up" to recoup the lost shipping money?

Overbought at tanga, last years B&N fire sale, and other sales from the "hot deals" forum.

If you bought game(s) for the purpose of trading, you shouldn't be taking a loss (factoring in all shipping costs) for what you could have bought the items on your want list for outright. Most of us buying games to trade them hopefully have bought them at good or great prices so that even when you factor in shipping at least break even.

Lots (most) of folks however are trading games they bought (or were gifted, or received in trade) to play, and then decided they don't like it, or just find it doesn't hit the table any more and sits unplayed. So they are trading away something they aren't playing, hoping to get something they will play. Even if they take what appears to be a loss, for them it's still a win.
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UA Darth
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laiernie wrote:
shadow9d9 wrote:
Could someone walk me through the OLWLG method of using duplicate protection?


the way i do it is:

before clicking 'add' for any items in step 3, skip over to step 4 (edit wants) and click the 'duplicate protection' button. create all the pseudo items for any duplicate games you want (i know this already because i keep track of games i'm interested in notepad as items are added to the geeklist). then go back to step 3, and click 'add' for all the games you're interested in. if it's a duplicate you only add it to the pseudo item, otherwise you add it to whichever of your games you want to. then when you're done you go back to step 4 and click boxes for your pseudo item to add to whichever of your games that you want.

in the end all duplicate games will only have 1 checkbox in their row which will be the pseudo item, all other entries including the pseudoitems themselves will have checks for whichever games you're willing to trade for them


Alrighty, I think that should help a bunch. Thanks!
 
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Jeff Michaud
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yendi wrote:
Jeff, out of curiosity, does the OLWLG have a way of processing alt tags for sweeteners?

Sorry, not at this time. Only the first +altname+/-altname- tag, if present, is used.
 
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rgatti wrote:
I didn't see paypal/cash in the limits/rules (exclusions). Does this mean we can include 3 items of paypal/cash in the Outside the Scope of BGG category? (Or are these generally excluded from all Math Trades by some larger BGG policy?)


Part of the reason (not the only reason, I guess) that cash is excluded is that the recipient would then be selling a game and expected to pay the BGG commission.
 
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Jeff Michaud
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DaJackel wrote:
Dang... and all my games are in with the Toronto No-Ship trade

The Toronto MT doesn't close til Sunday and want lists due days after that. You could list them in this MT too which will be over before the Toronto one even closes.
 
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