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FAB: The Bulge» Forums » General

Subject: No VPs for Dinant / Givet? rss

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A.N. Onymous
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Received this game last saturday in the mail; from learning the rules and playing by myself this looks like a great game!

However, I wondered why the Germans do not get any VPs for Dinant, Givet and Profondeville (areas 94-96). I can think of 3 reasons to give VPs for these areas:

* Historically, the furthest penetration was in this direction
* In Ardennes'44 it is possible to win by capturing this area (admittedly I have never played A44 against another human player, so maybe it's not a viable option)
* It would mean the German player has more options to put the Allies on the wrong foot. I think this would make sense, both from a historical and from a game playing perspective.

Undoubtedly the designers have good reasons for placing the VPs where they are and are not, but I am left wondering what they might be. Anyone care to comment?
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Christophe Sancy
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GuyHill wrote:


* Historically, the furthest penetration was in this direction

Undoubtedly the designers have good reasons for placing the VPs where they are and are not, but I am left wondering what they might be. Anyone care to comment?


Guido, the Germans did almost reach Dinant. A nice little town, appreciated by tourists. But there was nothing to win, there. A dead end street. Hitler's ultimate goal was Antwerp. Totally unrealistic, taking into account the available resources and the allies' air superiority. Antwerp was a major logistical hub. And so was Liège too. Big city, lot of industry, logistical crossroad at the junction of the river Meuse (> connection with The Netherlands/British forces) and the Albert canal (> connection with Antwerp). The corridor leading to Brussels & Antwerp is located between Namur and Liège.
 
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John Foley
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Quote:
The corridor leading to Brussels & Antwerp is located between Namur and Liège.


This is precisely why there are no VPs southwest of Namur.

The German viewpoint is to secure critical intermediate objectives (the "battlefield objectives") and drive on toward the strategic objective - namely between Liege and Namur on to Antwerp.

The Allied viewpoint is to prevent this of course (securing and holding the "battlefield objectives") and drive towards the German line (crush the breakout, defeat the resistance, drive forward, etc).

The Germans are *not* to be rewarded for driving off map *anywhere* in the west. The Allies however *are* to be rewarded for driving east *anywhere*. Not that it happens in the tournament game - but the threat must be there in case the German player carelessly thins out his line between 7th Army and 5th Panzer Army for example - something that (a) would have been unforgiveable and (b) catastrophic.

We want to emulate historical battlefield and strategic objectives - which will drive players towards historical play. "The Bulge" frequently forms - without having VPs in far off places that were not the goals of the operation.

For what it is worth, this is some of the thinking behind the design.

Allow me to state - this implies no criticism of other designs - I for one did not look at other designs for victory condition "tips", I spent a lot of time thinking about THIS design and what it should do. Not to mention all the thought about this from Rick which goes beyond my contributions.
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Rick Young
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The corridor leading to Brussels & Antwerp is located between Namur and Liège.

This is indeed the reason there are no VP's south of Namur. Strategically, the only thing in that direction is a further thinning of the German lines against the eventual Allied counterattack.
 
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John Foley
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It's always good when the Boss and I say the same thing. He usually says it in fewer words! ninja

Note that the rules for Victory are located in the Exclusive Rules, not the Series Rules. While we are very pleased with the nature of the victory condition system we have in place, we will create whatever is necessary to best reflect the motivations and objectives of the given conflict *exclusively* as we continue along in the series.
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Jim Cote
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Perhaps related. Historical games should not be designed to force or even nudge the players into the same choices as the real-life event. They should be presented with the same circumstances, make their own choices for their own reasons, and if it just happens to work out as it did in real life, that is simply a testament to the design's degree of simulation.
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Christophe Sancy
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ekted wrote:
Historical games should not be designed to force or even nudge the players into the same choices as the real-life event. They should be presented with the same circumstances, make their own choices for their own reasons, and if it just happens to work out as it did in real life, that is simply a testament to the design's degree of simulation.


I think I can agree with your remark, to a certain level . I'm allways surprised myself by the comments of some grognards complaining about a specific game, if it doesn't systematically reproduce in every detail an historical situation. Every wargame is by essence a "what if" exercice, an uchrony. This is why I'm not so crazy about the "simulation" definition, as it tends to set the "historical" aspect as the one and only standard of quality.

The system must indeed be open for alternate choices & strategies. And FAB: The Bulge, which proves to be remarkably realistic, still offers a lot of choices, within a reasonable frame. But there must be a logic behind the followed strategy. It must fit the bigger picture. That's the "with the same circumstances" part of your quote. I'm sure that you will agree on this: giving VP's for Dinant wouldn't make more sense than allowing a "D-Day allied player" to treat Limoges as the ultimate target of the campaign...
 
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John Foley
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The VP design provides for intermediate battlefield objectives, large unit destruction (which can occur anywhere during the game) and strategic objectives.

We've watched players perform all sorts of thrusts, end-runs and maneuvers. A German player does have to see whether pushing through at Elsenborn with everything will work - it will some times. He/she could trying the Peiper run up through Stoumont to Werbomont - that's really tough - it's tempting but very very tough. Do you try to reduce Bastogne? Or do you bypass it? Do you bypass and try to swing towards Namur or pull it back in towards Liege? There's no one single "path to victory" scripted into the game - not the game system and game topic we've been working on for years.

One goal (*after players having a great time and wanting to play again*) is to provide for plausible timelines and advance, action and engagement. It should feel like action in the Ardennes in 1944 and 1945 even if every game is unique. The Holy Grail (as I understand it) is for players to be able to actually develop a REAL Bulge. By this year, we got to see it regularly enough in some fashion or another to know that we got pretty close (prudently assuming that no one has ever "nailed it").

I hope I'm not digging myself into a grave - I'm really only trying to give some kind of insight into how the conditions were set up - because the original poster asked. There's more detail, but at a certain point, it just becomes a painful process of trying to articulate complex thoughts and insights.

Play and enjoy.
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Jan van der Laan
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Imperious leader wrote:
If this was true then Antwerp should be on the map.

When they make Kursk as the next "quick battle" module. I expect Kursk to be on the map.


The name of the game is "FAB: The Bulge" and "the Bulge" is on the map. Otherwise the name of the game would be "FAB: Antwerp" and in that case I would have expected Antwerp to be on the map. In a game called "FAB: Kursk" Kursk definitely should be on the map.
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Robert Wilson
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He is still mad about the playtest map
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Chadwik
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Imperious leader wrote:
NO sir! They correct that based on me bugging them...

Riiight. You da man.
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John Fairley
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Imperious leader wrote:
NO sir! They correct that based on me bugging them after they released a second map called the 'final map' In fact the thin paper comments also got to them and a thicker map was produced. Most GMT nightmares are like 5 ply toilet paper in terms of thickness, as if this cardstock was more precious than gold.


Wow, All that power... next time try pushing for mounted maps, and special commemorative dog-tags, and laminated player-aids, and 10 of each colour die, and varnished (pre-cut and pre-clipped) counters. Man throw in a golden monkey idol and SOLD!

jerk.
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Rick Young
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While I do worry about damaging imperious leader's sense of self-importance, I will state (again) that Mark Simonitch also did not like my playtest map when he saw it in the summer of 2004 and he told me at that time (in front of Tony Curtis, who gave the green light for the project) that he would change it when the time came for him to do the art, probably to areas, as he had done with Tigers in the Mist (another point-to-point bulge game).

Mark managed to do this without insulting my (admittedly primitive) art skills, which I appreciated.

Also, Europe Engulfed, GMT's first block game, published in December 2003 (long before I.L.'s rants) came with cardstock maps, and Tony Curtis told me that this will always be the standard for GMT's block games.

What imperious leader has managed to accomplish is establishing a severe reluctance on my part of posting playtest maps.

I do however look forward to imperious publishing his own bulge game which is, according to all of his reports, proof that the perfect bulge game can be designed.
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Fredrik Ulmstedt
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The perfect bulge game? NICE! I look forward to it.
 
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A.N. Onymous
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Thanks everyone for their replies!
 
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Robert Wilson
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The only bulge here is in his pants while he is posting his BS


my last post here , my +2 keyboard of troll slaying is kaput at the moment
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Chadwik
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Heh. Looks like we got Imp Leader all riled up again. Like poking a stick in an anthill.
 
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A.N. Onymous
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Imperious leader wrote:
Try doing that in a game about Market Garden or Barbarossa. In those games Arnhem or Moscow must fall. No game about market Garden was ever made that did not include Arnhem even though the allies never took it in that battle. You don't see Moscow missing on a map for Barbarossa just because the Germans could not take it. You always see those oil fields at Baku, while Germany didn't get close to them either.


That's a false analogy. The Germans reached the outskirts of Moscow in december 1941. The Allied ground forces got to within a few kilometers of Arnhem bridge. In either case the offensive could have succeeded. The Ardennes Offensive on the other hand never got anywhere near Antwerp.

The offensive was doomed from the start. Both Rundstedt and Model proposed alternative "small solutions" to Hitler, who went ahead with his "big solution" anyway. In a way, bulge games simulate some form of small solution. An "Antwerp or Bust" game would not be any fun at all, as the Germans would not stand a chance against even moderately competent Allied play. Also, with Antwerp on the map the entire game would play out on a very small corner of the map, with a large part of the map never seeing any play at all.
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John Fairley
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Rick Young wrote:
What imperious leader has managed to accomplish is establishing a severe reluctance on my part of posting playtest maps.



What BGG needs is an *ignore* function.

A compromise (re: maps) might be to just post them after the game is published, like Matt did for Pandemic. It's really nice to see the development of the game, but believe me I understand that too much criticism about stuff you know is unfinished is very frustrating.
 
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Chadwik
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Quote:
What BGG needs is an *ignore* function.

It has one, John. Click on the user's inverted triangle icon to open up a dropdown menu, then select "hide user's posts".
 
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John Fairley
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As always Chad, you rock.
 
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A.N. Onymous
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Bostich wrote:
Rick Young wrote:
What imperious leader has managed to accomplish is establishing a severe reluctance on my part of posting playtest maps.



What BGG needs is an *ignore* function.

A compromise (re: maps) might be to just post them after the game is published, like Matt did for Pandemic. It's really nice to see the development of the game, but believe me I understand that too much criticism about stuff you know is unfinished is very frustrating.


I don't know. I understand Rick's reluctance to post unfinished stuff. But one of the reasons I have bought FAB: the Bulge is because of the extensive previews on BGG. I don't think I would have paid it much attention if the playtest stuff would not have been available.
 
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Joel Tamburo
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Imperious leader wrote:
NO sir! They correct that based on me bugging them after they released a second map called the 'final map' In fact the thin paper comments also got to them and a thicker map was produced. Most GMT nightmares are like 5 ply toilet paper in terms of thickness, as if this cardstock was more precious than gold.

Of course you/they will say "Imperious your full of it" But i know i planted that seed in the mind that led to change. I am like the Gordon Ramsey for game design.

add:

Quote:
"FAB: The Bulge" and "the Bulge" is on the map."


When they make the Kursk game, when you order they should swap out the OOB map and insert a street map of only Kursk just for you to make you eat those words.They have your name and they know who you are.


snore
 
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A.N. Onymous
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Imperious leader wrote:
Quote:
That's a false analogy. The Germans reached the outskirts of Moscow in December 1941. The Allied ground forces got to within a few kilometers of Arnhem bridge. In either case the offensive could have succeeded. The Ardennes Offensive on the other hand never got anywhere near Antwerp.

The offensive was doomed from the start. Both Rundstedt and Model proposed alternative "small solutions" to Hitler, who went ahead with his "big solution" anyway. In a way, bulge games simulate some form of small solution. An "Antwerp or Bust" game would not be any fun at all, as the Germans would not stand a chance against even moderately competent Allied play. Also, with Antwerp on the map the entire game would play out on a very small corner of the map, with a large part of the map never seeing any play at all.


Ahh so now the threshold is 50 miles? But you do realize that In 1940 the Germans nearly reached the Meuse in a day?


Please don't change the subject. FAB: the bulge is not about the 1940 campaign, which was fought under completely different circumstances. During 1944 the Germans did not even reach the Meuse.

Imperious leader wrote:
Antwerp is about 53 miles further.So your point is if the Objective is less than 50 miles away then have it on the map.


This is a deliberate (I suspect) distortion of what I said. But I'll humour you with a response anyway. It's not about linear distance. It's a question of scale. During the Ardennes offensive the Germans did not cover even half the distance they wanted to go. In all three other cases you mention (Barbarossa, Case Blue and Market Garden) the distance covered was far above 50% of the total distance to the objective.

Imperious leader wrote:
I notice some areas of the map that are close to 50 miles farther than where the Germans actually achieved.


This is a silly argument. Maps have a tendency to be rectangular.

Imperious leader wrote:
Since your threshold is 50 miles, then IN all those battles ( Arnhem and Moscow and countless others, then any areas farther than 50 miles farther then where the enemy actually captured should not be on the map.


You're arguing against a strawman here. 50 miles is not "my threshold", as I explained above. You clearly do not understand my position on this. It would not hurt to ask for clarification.

Imperious leader wrote:
Please send me all your games. I will cut out the appropriate parts you no longer need so you wont be bothered. In your copy of
Quote:
Russian Campaign
i will cut out baku and the entire map east of 50 miles clear of the Germans Dec 5th 1941 positions.


You have my permission to cut the map sheets of all my copies of "Russian campaign" in any way you want. I'll spell it out for you, in case you don't understand: I DON'T OWN "Russian Campaign". Please start a discussion thread in the forum of that game if you have any problems with it. Is it so hard for you to post on topic?

Imperious leader wrote:
Quote:
An "Antwerp or Bust" game would not be any fun at all, as the Germans would not stand a chance against even moderately competent Allied play.


How do you know this have you played many games like this before? How would you know other than what you allow others to spoon feed your mind?
Do you just say that because you see that most Bulge games basically ripped off the same conclusion from the original Bulge Game done by Avalon Hill in 1965, or you entirely swayed by that one off comment by Eisenhower "They must not in any event be allowed to cross the Meuse river or our problems will be compounded"

Yea i saw that movie too, except i get my facts from books tempered with analysis and of what could have happened.


I have some trouble believing you've read any books on the subject. Care to give us some citations?

Imperious leader wrote:
Quote:
The offensive was doomed from the start


And now the conclusion of your ill advised comments..


Which is backed by the expert opinions of those who knew best: Field marshalls von Rundstedt and Model. They both argued against the Ardennes offensive. Do you honestly think they were wrong?

Imperious leader wrote:
Then why are you playing battles where it was impossible for one side to win?


To try to do better than they did historically. In case of FAB: the Bulge, to try to cross the Meuse.

Imperious leader wrote:
If you believe this your the biggest fool of all.


Ad Hominem attacks won't get you anywhere.

Imperious leader wrote:
Since the simulation is not supposed to be a scripted path of the event, but rather allow for some flexibility to "see what could happen" If: 1) the allies don't get to Bastogne,


FAB: the bulge lets you explore this possibility.

Imperious leader wrote:
2)the German supplies are kept closer to the front lines and not in the Eifel,


FAB: the bulge lets you explore this possibility as well. Simply play without the fuel rules.

Imperious leader wrote:
3)that Piper gets more mobile tanks and Hitler does not insist on him using all sorts of heavy tanks to clog up the roads and waste time refueling,


FAB: the bulge lets you explore this possibility. KG Peiper is exactly as mobile as the other Panzer units. This point aside, the top speed of a tank has little to do with the average speed of advance of an entire unit.

Imperious leader wrote:
4)when the Germans actually might have studied the locations of allied fuel depots,


FAB: the bulge lets you explore this possibility. Simply play without the fuel rules, or modify the circumstances by which you get extra fuel when capturing a victory point. The rules as written state that you get extra fuel if you roll a 1 on a d10. You could simply change this rule so as to always receive extra fuel when capturing a VP. FAB: the bulge even comes with spare fuel counters.

Imperious leader wrote:
5)that the paratroopers were trained earlier,


FAB: the bulge lets you explore this possibility. Simply give Heydte a higher chance of success. In light of all the questions you can explore with FAB: the bulge, maybe you should stop whining and start playing the game.

Imperious leader wrote:
and many other considerations could have gave the Germans the 50 miles you so preciously deny them.... all because you have not read too much about the battle and would rather have somebody spoon feed you ideas and you just nod your head?


Please stop predicting what I do and do not know. You have no way of knowing.

Imperious leader wrote:
you people got to come up with something better than this?

I can't comment on the others posting because they have produced nothing but silly comments.

Who's next?


If I may hazard a guess, no-one. Your posting style is too abrasive for constructive discussion.

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A.N. Onymous
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I'm not going to bother to answer your atrociously formatted post in detail. Please learn how to use quotes in the correct fashion. I'll just point out one interesting thing.

From your last post:

Imperious leader wrote:
However, I would be remiss in noting the distance from that furthest point of the 'bulge' to Antwerp was about 40 miles, and as i said before the map has a few places that come close to about 20 miles away, so were talking about a difference of 20-25 miles further than whats already on the map.


(i) The furthest German penetration was at Celles. According to Google Earth the distance between Celles and Antwerp is 73 miles. Your claim of 40 miles is therefore widely off the mark. You claim to be an expert on the Ardennes Offensive, so you must have been aware of this.

(ii) Namur is the city on the Meuse that is closest to Antwerp. According to Google Earth the distance between Namur and Antwerp is 56 miles. The Meuse is at the very edge of the FAB: the bulge map. Therefore your claim that the FAB: the bulge map contains places that are within 20 miles of Antwerp is false. If your claim were true, then the majority of Belgium, including the capital Brussels, would be on the map. Not surprisingly, it isn't.

(iii) You never "said so before" - not in this thread, at least. In fact it flat-out contradicts an earlier claim of yours:

In an earlier post, Imperious leader wrote:
But you do realize that In 1940 the Germans nearly reached the Meuse in a day? Antwerp is about 53 miles further.


So you are aware that the distance between the Meuse and Antwerp is about 55 miles. Your claim that it is 20-25 miles away is therefore a deliberate attempt on your behalf to downplay the additional distance the Germans would have had to cover to reach Antwerp. You make it look like Antwerp is almost on the edge of the FAB: the bulge map, whereas in reality it is a full map sheet further away to the northwest.

In short, you are dishonest and a liar. Needless to say, I don't spend time with such people. Hence I will not deal with you any further. As they say on Usenet: *PLONK*
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