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Subject: Count Michigan and Florida rss

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Scott Russell
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So is everyone surprised that Hillary now wants to count Florida and Michigan delegates?

 
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nextinline wrote:
No. On the other hand is everyone surprised that Florida and Michigan want to be counted?


Give a couple of days and Obama will promise all Michiganders and Floridians a healthy dollop of change and hope if they just keep their mouths shut and let sleeping dogs lie.
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Matthew M
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nextinline wrote:
No. On the other hand is everyone surprised that Florida and Michigan want to be counted?


No, and they should punish their respective state committee members that broke the DNC rules and put them in the position they've found themselves in.

-MMM
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Paul Sauberer
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On the one hand the Hillary supporters are wanting to count Michigan and Florida, thereby changing the rules that were agreed to before the primaries started.

On the other hand, you have Obama supporters saying that the superdelegates shouldn't vote the way they want to and should just reflect the results of the elected delegate count. This effectively changes the victory conditions from 2025 delegates needed to win to whoever has a plurality of delegates elected in primaries and caucuses wins.

Both sides want to change the rules from what was set out before the primary season to whatever will get their candidate the nomination.
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Scott Russell
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Octavian wrote:
nextinline wrote:
No. On the other hand is everyone surprised that Florida and Michigan want to be counted?


No, and they should punish their respective state committee members that broke the DNC rules and put them in the position they've found themselves in.

-MMM


While I am all in favor of punishng politicians at every opportunity, who actually decides when the primaries take place?

Since we in MIchigan have a mostly open primary (this year, we had to choose before receiving a ballot), if the Republicans wanted to have it in Feb and the Dems didn't, who decides?

This obviously also screws up the concept of a revote that has been thrown out because the Republicans are counting half of the delegates.
 
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Melissa
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Octavian wrote:
they should punish their respective state committee members that broke the DNC rules and put them in the position they've found themselves in.


I agree. A proper punishment would have been to strip the super-delegates, not the pledged delegates as well.

I am in Florida. I assure you I had NO chance to vote on when we hold primaries. It was determined by the legislature, which is full of... superdelegates.
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Koldfoot wrote:
"How are the democrats going to blame this one on Bush?" He said with a huge grin on his face.

"I don't know," she replied, "the only thing I know for sure is that they will."


Koldy, honestly, get over it. shake

I am a Michigander and a staunch Democrat. It pisses me off what the legislature did but done is done. Rules are rules. They either should not be counted - OR - they should figure out a redo.
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JessA
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Michigan can never win, can we? Just think how important our primary would have been this year if we had held it at the right time and it actually counted! sTuPid people!

I hope the DNC holds firm and doesn't count our delegates.
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Melissa
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nextinline wrote:
Did you hear that Florida MIGHT have a primary now? How would you feel about that?

Since they are closed, it doesn't effect me, but it seems more just then counting the psuedo-primary votes.

Sadly some damage has already been done with a controversial local property tax limit passing at the same time as the primaries, probably in part because of the higher republican turn out...
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Scott Russell
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Maybe we should go back to the "good old days." Just let the elected delegates party, while the superdelegates determine the nominee, then the delegates can party again.

I really thought after the Dems blew the gimme election in 2004 that they might learn something. However, it seems that the "big tent" is doomed to collapse again. At least McCain appears to be some improvement over Bush in many areas.

I really wish that this whole some states being more important than others in the primary season would go away. If politicians really see the need for "retail politics," then set up a rotation with two to four primary dates. States would take turns with which date they get. This dragging out over five months helps no one, but the ad agencies.
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Scott Russell
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Another thought struck me. If the national committess do decide to "punish" states for not following their preferred, I can see state legislators using that to their advantage by scheduling dates that will cause the elected delegates to be discounted. I can see all kinds of scenarios where this could prove useful to existing power structures.
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Bela's dead and Vampira won't talk
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Allow states to move their primaries!?!?!? But what about all the political capital vested in Iowa farmers' subsidies, corn-based ethanol, and other politically expedient government actions?!?!?! Where's the folksy momentum in that!?!

If we just let states move their primaries around willy nilly, we'll have to adjust our moronic subsidies and kowtowing every election year, or even (*gasp*) do what's best for the entire country! Do you know how much of a pain in the ass that would be?!

...

More evidence of the stupidity that is letting the two parties control the country's entire political process.
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Michigan Gov. Jennifer Granholm considers caucus to nominate Clinton or Obama

zee latest from ye olde ruste belte
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Aloha!
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Michigan: trying to matter since 1837.

Whole darn thing is turning into a circus. I'll let you decide who the clowns are.
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Everyones vote should count, no matter how retarded their governing body is.
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Jim Patterson
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It's most likely looking like a revote: Michigan may have a caucus, Florida a primary.
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/181871.php

To me, it's still most likely that the nomination will be settled before this becomes a major issue--not because Obama can win outright in pledged delegates (much less can Clinton at this point), but because even the Democratic party, with its fondness for self-immolation, won't let this drag on till midsummer.
 
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Scott Russell
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Oh goody, I get to pay for another election/caucus! gulp




 
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Matthew Frederick
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Revote or not counting are the only ways to handle it. It would be absurd to count Michigan's previous vote since only one person was on the ballot.

The DNC has offered to help pay for the revotes. I think it's extremely likely, as it's probably the only thing that can be done to keep the party from splitting (which would knock Dem-A and Dem-B candidates out for a long time while the whole thing reorganizes).
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Tsar Count
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I would prefer we get rid of the entire primary system. Have everyone vote in a June election with all the candidates (mulitiple in each party if that be the case) and then have a run off in Novemeber with the top two; just like many local elections are run. That would take away some of the power of the people running the two big parties; but I wouldn't mind that.
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Scott Russell
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mfrederick wrote:
Revote or not counting are the only ways to handle it. It would be absurd to count Michigan's previous vote since only one person was on the ballot.

The DNC has offered to help pay for the revotes. I think it's extremely likely, as it's probably the only thing that can be done to keep the party from splitting (which would knock Dem-A and Dem-B candidates out for a long time while the whole thing reorganizes).


Actually Dean specifically said no national Dem money would be comng to Michigan or Florida. FOrtunately, our Dem governor is on record as saying the taxpayers shouldn't have to pay for another elaction process.

It will be interesting watching the Dems melt down again.

Hope McCain picks a good VP.
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Jim Patterson
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qzhdad wrote:
Hope McCain picks a good VP.


Hillary's available.

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Mark Hamburg
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nextinline wrote:
This history presents a problem for all the guys (of all ages, races, and prejudices) who expect women to step out of the way so they can keep their buzz going.


My issue with Hillary is only indirectly related to her gender. Because she is female, she can be married to Bill. And the thought of Bill in the White House again in any capacity greatly bothers me. I was almost over it, then he started opening his mouth in SC and I decided that I was done with the Clintons. I voted for Bill both times before and agree with a lot of what he did, but I think it's time for someone not named Clinton or Bush. I feel bad holding that against Hillary, but that's the way I see it. If Hillary does emerge as the nominee, I'll almost certainly vote for her, but I'll do it reluctantly.

I'd be happy to support a female candidate and hope that another emerges in the next election cycle. There are quite a few women in the Senate and serving as governors right now, so we ought to see one or more serious female candidates in the next few years. When one emerges, if I otherwise agree with her, I'll be glad to vote for her.

Back to the topic- this can't end well for the Democrats. An Obama win in Pennsylvania might put it to rest, but otherwise it looks bad. No matter what is decided, someone will think it's unfair. And they'll be right. McCain's got to be loving this.
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Daniel Karp
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The stated rules, that both the states and the candidates agreed to, is that primaries before a certain date would not count. I think that everyone's vote should count, including voters who took the candidates and the DNC at their word, and withheld their votes on those days, in the same way some people withhold their opinion from pollsters. The only fair way to count people's votes in Michigan and Florida would be to hold new elections or caucuses that voters know will count at the time of the elections or caucuses. Changing the rules and counting votes that voters were told would be meaningless seems more unfair to the voters (and certainly to the people who would vote in any meaningful election, and not in any opinion poll) than not counting them at all.
 
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Paul Sauberer
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dakarp wrote:
The stated rules, that both the states and the candidates agreed to, is that primaries before a certain date would not count. I think that everyone's vote should count, including voters who took the candidates and the DNC at their word, and withheld their votes on those days, in the same way some people withhold their opinion from pollsters. The only fair way to count people's votes in Michigan and Florida would be to hold new elections or caucuses that voters know will count at the time of the elections or caucuses. Changing the rules and counting votes that voters were told would be meaningless seems more unfair to the voters (and certainly to the people who would vote in any meaningful election, and not in any opinion poll) than not counting them at all.


The rules that candidates agreed to also said that 2025 delegates were needed for the nomination. The delegate pool is to be comprised of delegates selected in primaries and caucuses who are to reflect those results AND "superdelegates" that are free to vote for the candidate of their choice, with no automatic requirements attached to their votes.

To say now that the candidate who has the most delegates among the former pool heading into the convention, while short of the 2025, should then be entitled to the votes of the "superdelegates" is also an attempt to change the rules.

Complaining now that the 2025 is not the real number to get the nomination and that what should only count is the number of delegates collected during the primaries and caucuses is disingenuous. If it was so vital for "the voice of the people" to be the deciding factor then where were the complaints before it became obvious that the "voice of the people" wouldn't add up to 2025 for you?

It just makes me think that if their positions were reversed both Clinton and Obama would be making the exactly opposite arguments than they are making now. They are both seeking to change the rules to benefit themselves and would do it however they would need to depending on the situation.
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Matthew Frederick
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qzhdad wrote:
mfrederick wrote:
Revote or not counting are the only ways to handle it. It would be absurd to count Michigan's previous vote since only one person was on the ballot.

The DNC has offered to help pay for the revotes. I think it's extremely likely, as it's probably the only thing that can be done to keep the party from splitting (which would knock Dem-A and Dem-B candidates out for a long time while the whole thing reorganizes).


Actually Dean specifically said no national Dem money would be comng to Michigan or Florida.

Actually, in an NPR interview four days ago Dean specifically and clearly said the DNC had offered money. I even heard him say it.
 
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