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AT-43 Initiation Set: Operation Damocles» Forums » General

Subject: Indirect Fire is slowly killing AT-43 for me..... rss

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No matter whether I've played UNA/Therian/Karman...

No matter whether I have a well played strategy...

No matter how many points I invest in leaders...

No matter what faction I seem to choose...

Some ass with a indirect fire weapon and a lucky shot can wipe out half a platoon. Whether killing or knocking down my troops. Why get expensive troops or squads when all you need is to launch indirect fire?

It is really killing the game for me. Is it me? Maybe there are some suggestions you could give?
 
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Josh Street
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Hide? Seriously though, indirect fire is pretty awesome in nearly all miniature games because of the lack of any "fog of war." Its a definite shortcoming (of the game type, not this game specifically - in my 40K days I knew a guy who maxed out on Whirlwinds and other template weapons...uncanny sight measurement that guy...), that I don't really see an effective fix for (short of neutering the weapons themselves, which would simply mean no one uses them.
 
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Mike zebrowski
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1) Use the unofficial, official rules change:
If all of the dice miss, then the shot drifts a minimum of 10cm.

This was announced months ago by Rackham as an upcoming rules change. However, they haven't officially changed the rules yet. However, most people play with the change as Rackham is slow as hell when it comes to publishing errata.

2) Keep your guys spread out. Most indirect fire weapons have a small radius.

3) Remember, AFVs are not affected by indirect fire weapons as their damage is too low.

4) Play with lots of terrain. If he can't see you, he can not shoot at you.

How big of a table do you play on?
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We use a table large enough to hold the complete tile set. We use lots of terrain as well, but it just seems that whenever I start to move for the objsctive, the indirect fire shows up.

When we play with lots of terrain, it's hard to space out without getting far from your leader. The Karmans are harder because they are very exposed due to their size. It seems by the time I run a squad to my opponent, they have been shot down to nothing or knocked out/blown up by IDF.

My opponents count on the drift. They know if they miss, they'll usually take some of the squad out the blast. I'm sure I just need to play it out better but I'm stumped. I can't get the hang of steering clear of this whether I'm on an inside map or outside map.
 
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Tom Shydler
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Rob, I agree with your comments on this. When I first started playing, it was without Indirect Fire. I found that adding Indirect really changed the game for the worse. The effects are too strong and the accuracy way too great for the "big" guns. You really can't eliminate it since a number of weapons require it, but I basically came up with my own rules to tone it down. I don't think the "fix" does much to change the result.
 
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What was the change you used?
 
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Mike zebrowski
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Can you give me a detailed example? It is difficult to figure out what you are doing wrong when you only describe generalities. I've been playing weekly for almost a year and IDF has never bothered me.
 
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We tend to play team battles with Victory Points for killing squads, and VPs for controlling objectives. We've played with interior maps using the tiles and terrain-laden boards with buildings, platforms, crates etc.

I'll use my Anakongas as the example. I keep them inside, maneuvering between walls/terrain to get close to the objectives or a nearby Unit. My opponent tends to stay just outside range of the Objective and waits until they get a peek at me. Then they send grenades my way. Even if the grenades miss, they still hit within 10cm and take out a large chunk of my squad. Either they get killed or knocked down. Even if that does not slow them down (half the squad still up) it weakens them so that by the time they reach their goal, the squad is less than half what it started as.

What I hate the most is that the range seems excessive and if they miss the attack, they still hit me with the drift. It's a lose/lose scenario.

I hope that was enough details.
 
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Mike zebrowski
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More detail please.

Who is throwing grenades, how many, from what distance, how many hit, how many miss, etc... Walk me through a complete example, with numbers.
 
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Fred Swick
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I'll help Rob out with this part, because I was the shooter. First off, I'll admit that I screwed up the first couple of shots. I had a max unit of Krasny Soldati w/ 3 launchers. The first shots were at a range where hits were impossible, so they should not have happened (I thought that even though a hit couldn't be rolled, it was just an automatic miss. Instead it shouldn't even go off if you can't hit with a 6. My very large mistake, that will be rectified in the future.)

The last 2 shots were closer (rng 4, I believe) so 5+ was needed. 3 launchers, both times I rolled at least 2 5's. I'm not sure on the exact number of casualties caused though.

We use the unofficial, 10cm drift when missed rule. Our table is 4'x 5', we usually play with 2 teams of 2 people and play the long dimension. But that greatly limits the use of both Rob's Anakongas, and my Red Blok normal weapons. I think in the future we're going to try playing across the short way, to be able to get into combat faster, and with more terrain. Last game we were using the old terrain that came with Necromunda, which wasn't bad, but even with that the firing alleys are long and fairly open.

Mainly, I use the grenade launchers at range for the grounding, to slow down the foot troops. They're not strong enough to do large amounts of damage themselves without the assist of the rest of the squads weapons, which don't become effective until closer range. I do use them at maximum range though, aim at a centrally located unit, and hope for a good drift.

I feel bad that I've gotten him frustrated because of this. Especially since I screwed up, and broke the rules out of ignorance.
 
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Tom Shydler
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My recollection is that the "flamer" weapons are ultimate killers, auto hits, no defense bonuses, attack of nine. The off-board artillery is not quite as strong, but still very effective. My experience has been that the drift factor is not significant enough to negate the strength of the weapons (due to numbers of units vs number of IDF weapons in the larger scenarios). My own adjustment was to add a 2d6 roll(outright miss on any pairs) prior to determining impact.
 
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Sean Conroy
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I have not been able to use indirect fire yet as I have only just started to play this game. I am looking to build a Red Blok army, but here are some thoughts from looking at the unit stats and what I have seen in some of the games I have played.

Please correct me if my conceptions are incorrect because I do want to learn more about how this game plays out.

The example I will use is the Krasny Soldat for the Red Blok.

Looking at thier stats the individual soldier's greneades
Accuracy = 0
Attack Rate = 1
Area of Effect = 1
Penetration = 4

Now if I interperet the rules correctly this puts the max range for these grenades at 5 needing 6 to hit.

A full squad of 12 KS should get one hit per 6 dice so 2 hits on average (rough guestimate). Resulting in an area of effect of 2cm deviation of 10cm. Seems like a big whiff to me unless there is some really skillfull template placement.

Now on the other hand the KS grenade launchers do appear a bit nastier.

Accuracy = 2
Attack Rate = 1
AOE = 3
Penetration = 4

So max range is 7 with a 6 to hit and there would be a smaller deviation with the potential for a larger radius. So a tightly grouped squad would be in trouble say in close quarter/urban combat. Out in the open though, maybe not so much, again crafty template placement would come into play.

Here comes the part where I get lost. Most of the other races are pretty effective at longer range am I right? Wouldn't they be able to stay just out of grenade chucking range and tear the KS squad apart?

Or is the vast numbers of Red Blok soldiers and their ability to keep enemy infantry grounded the problem? Then why not back infantry up with Tac Arms or vehicles?

Again just trying to understand the game. The way it looks indirect fire with grenade launchers, mortars and flamers seem to be the Red Bloks advantage amongst many shortcomings. Crap armor (there all in caps for cying out loud, anyone heard of a helmet?) and crap assault riffles for their base units.

Again, this is just what I observed from the stat sheets and from some games I've played. Really trying to understand the game more.

Great game overall I would say.









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