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Field of Glory» Forums » General

Subject: Finally: Good Production rss

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Nicholas Jost
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Thank heaven Osprey is trying to change the look of historical rules. Nice production and Barkerese may be dead! May it quickly rot!
 
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James Hamilton
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It's quite interesting to find your wargaming mates turning up at the club and commenting that they have just got their copy of FoG and "I didn't realise it was a hardback!!"

I think that Field of Glory and Flames of War have jointly raised the bar for wargames rules presentation.
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Neil Helmer
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See my other thread on miniatures...
I'm not computer savvy... But I had no idea that this was an Osprey product! I've worked in the museum field for more than a decade now, and I have deep repect for this company, their research, and products.
So without the miniatures...
how are we looking?
 
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Endre Fodstad
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I wonder if this is the FoW of ancient-medieval battles, but I get more skeptical when when seeing the reviews. World War 2, while interesting, is not a subject that would drag me back into historical wargaming, whereas ancient and medieval battles could! However, I am skeptical toward whether they can accurately depict such battles, from such a broad period, in the FOG system. Especially, I am concerned about the "God in the Sky" issues. While PIPs often were frustrating, they discouraged playing as if every unit leader was carrying a radio set...are there systems to simulate this in FOG or did ancient wargaming just get more unrealistic on the army scale with FOG?

Mondoron wrote:
But I had no idea that this was an Osprey product! I've worked in the museum field for more than a decade now, and I have deep repect for this company, their research, and products.


Hmmm. I also work in the museum field, and while I think Osprey produces both excellent, well-researched titles, they also produce some embarassingly bad titles...and since the latter estimates tend to be on subjects on which I have reasonable knowledge, I have started to wonder about them generally. Which is not to say that I have not seen good titles on fields I know something about.
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John Mehrholz
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Endre Fodstad wrote:
I wonder if this is the FoW of ancient-medieval battles

No, it's not. At least not for the US market. FoW was successful partly because of presentation, but mostly because of the ready availability of miniatures. Until players can go to their FLGS, or at least online to a US site, and get exactly the miniatures they need for their army, then FoG is unlikely to achieve the same level of success here as FoW has.

That said, the original post was about the production quality of the book, and in that regard it far exceeds anything Battlefront has put out, or for that matter any other game company in recent memory. Beautiful pages, extensive index and contents listings, and superior binding that lays flat when open!

I'd have to go back to the old 1st edition AD&D books to find something that even comes close in the quality of bindery.
 
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John Mehrholz
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bestbandis wrote:
Fulminata wrote:
FoW was successful partly because of presentation, but mostly because of the ready availability of miniatures. Until players can go to their FLGS, or at least online to a US site, and get exactly the miniatures they need for their army, then FoG is unlikely to achieve the same level of success here as FoW has.


Someone must have read your post Old Glory has put together army packs, and I imagine other companies/online stores are doing the same thing. As you say, if the figures were right there in the game store in army and army expansion packs you'd think it would entice more people to get into it.


Old Glory isn't the only one. Black Hat in England is doing it too with their 15mm miniatures, and Scale Creep Miniatures is distributing the armies in the US. They are enough to get someone like me into the game, but it's still not enough to achieve the kind of success FoW has seen.

I'm a dedicated history nut who just doesn't want to deal with the hassle of hunting down all the right miniatures from different companies, many of which are overseas. A lot of the players that FoW has attracted are not dedicated history nuts. They are gamers with a passing interest in history. There would need to be more than just army packs to get those people as players of FoG. They're going to want to be able to open up a FoG army book, put together a list, and then go to the store or online and buy exactly what they need in order to field that force, just like you can with FoW or Warhammer.

I'm not expecting anyone to do this, I'm just stating what would be necessary to achieve the kind of success in the US for FoG that FoW has had here.
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James Hamilton
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Take a look at www.wargamesfactory.com they have an official tie in with Osprey and Slitherine to produce a range of hard plastic figures labeled for FoG. These figures will initially be 28mm multipart but there may be 15mm figures in the future. If these can be placed alongside the rules you have something to rival FoW.
 
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John Mehrholz
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Yes and no. I'm probably going to get some of the wargames factory miniatures when they come out, but so far they only have miniatures planned for two of the 18 lists from one out of seven announced army books. That's not enough to bring in the gamers I've been talking about. The gamers that helped make FoW successful.

There's some other factors that I haven't mentioned yet that will also help keep FoG from achieving the success of FoW. First are the variable scales. Being able to use the rules with different scales of minis is great for existing players switching from other rules, but it's a big negative for attracting new players. One of the reasons FoW is so successful here is that you can take your army anywhere people play and start a pickup game. You don't have to check what scale they might play in, because just about everyone uses 15mm, and those few that don't aren't generally playing pick-up games anyways.

Second, part of the success of FoW has come from retailer support that just won't exist for FoG. The hassle involved in dealing with small producers of miniatures in different scales just isn't going to be worth it at most brick & mortars in the US. Dealing with just one company for FoW is barely worth it for some.

Third, Slitherine/Osprey aren't looking for FoW style success. They're selling books, period. Battlefront sells miniatures first and books second. These different priorities lead to very different marketing strategies, that in turn makes it unlikely that FoG will achieve similar success.

Don't get me wrong. FoG is already a success, and I think it will continue to be so, it's simply not going to have the same kind of success of FoW where we'll see a huge number of new people entering Ancients & Medieval miniatures gaming.
 
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James Hamilton
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Fulminata wrote:
One of the reasons FoW is so successful here is that you can take your army anywhere people play and start a pickup game. You don't have to check what scale they might play in, because just about everyone uses 15mm, and those few that don't aren't generally playing pick-up games anyways.


This is a valid point but not actually correct. FoW is completely split into mid war and late war and a lot of armies will not cross the divide.

FoG will allow any army to play another army based on the same bases.

Quote:

Second, part of the success of FoW has come from retailer support that just won't exist for FoG. The hassle involved in dealing with small producers of miniatures in different scales just isn't going to be worth it at most brick & mortars in the US. Dealing with just one company for FoW is barely worth it for some.


True but if a retailer can get the rules and all the armies with similar branding they may carry for example the Wargames Factory stuff.

Quote:

Third, Slitherine/Osprey aren't looking for FoW style success. They're selling books, period. Battlefront sells miniatures first and books second. These different priorities lead to very different marketing strategies, that in turn makes it unlikely that FoG will achieve similar success.


Absolutely. Battlefront are all about selling minatures much like GW. That said my latest army for FoW hardly contains any BF minatures.

Quote:

Don't get me wrong. FoG is already a success, and I think it will continue to be so, it's simply not going to have the same kind of success of FoW where we'll see a huge number of new people entering Ancients & Medieval miniatures gaming.


I don't know, it depends on the definition of huge. In the UK the biggest tournaments are / were either Warhammer Fantasy or DBM and FoG seems to appeal to both sets of players.
 
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John Mehrholz
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Hammy wrote:
Fulminata wrote:
One of the reasons FoW is so successful here is that you can take your army anywhere people play and start a pickup game. You don't have to check what scale they might play in, because just about everyone uses 15mm, and those few that don't aren't generally playing pick-up games anyways.


This is a valid point but not actually correct. FoW is completely split into mid war and late war and a lot of armies will not cross the divide.

FoG will allow any army to play another army based on the same bases.

Yes, but if I have a mid-war army and my opponent has a late-war one, then it's a relatively simple matter for one of us to convert our force to the other's period using a few proxies if necessary. If I show up with a FoG army based at 60mm and my opponent has one at 40mm we're SoL.

That doesn't even consider the purely aesthetic concerns that are involved when a 6mm army goes up against a 15mm one, even though they [url][/url]use the same bases. Sure, it doesn't effect play of the game, but aesthetics play heavily into why people play miniatures in the first place.

Quote:
Quote:

Second, part of the success of FoW has come from retailer support that just won't exist for FoG. The hassle involved in dealing with small producers of miniatures in different scales just isn't going to be worth it at most brick & mortars in the US. Dealing with just one company for FoW is barely worth it for some.


True but if a retailer can get the rules and all the armies with similar branding they may carry for example the Wargames Factory stuff.

Eventually maybe, but Wargames Factory doesn't have a single product for sale yet. If and when they have a catalog of product that will allow people to purchase complete armies of their choice, then things will be different. That point looks to be a long ways off.

Quote:
Quote:

Don't get me wrong. FoG is already a success, and I think it will continue to be so, it's simply not going to have the same kind of success of FoW where we'll see a huge number of new people entering Ancients & Medieval miniatures gaming.


I don't know, it depends on the definition of huge. In the UK the biggest tournaments are / were either Warhammer Fantasy or DBM and FoG seems to appeal to both sets of players.


My comments are mainly concerning the US. FoW in the US doesn't really compete with other WWII rules sets at a commercial level. It competes with Warhammer and Warmachine. Every single player of Warhammer Fantasy and DBM can switch to FoG, but you won't have added a single new player to the Ancients/Medieval genre. That's the kind of change that FoW brought to WWII miniatures in the US. It brought in people who had never played WWII miniature before, and it brought in a lot of them!

This is a very interesting subject, but doesn't really have anything to do with the original topic of the thread. I posted more of my thoughts on the subject here if anyone's interested.
 
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Scott
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I have been following the progress of Field of Glory for well over a year now, and nothing I have ever seen from the rules authors, Osprey or Slitherine suggests to me that they intended for Field of Glory to be "the next Flames of War," or in fact anything other than a very detailed, engaging, coherent, well-produced set of ancients miniatures rules, meant to appeal to players of historical scenarios as well as tournament competitions. With all due respect, it appears to me that the notion that FoG might be anything like FoW has come from some people making assumptions about the content based on the very high production values, before they had actually read or researched the FoG rules for themselves.
 
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Mark Holmes
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I agree with Scott. I think the authors intentions were simply to put together new, refreshing set of rules as an antidote to the moribund DBM. As for them doing a Flames of War style tilt at world domination? As I understand it, FoG was in development, Wargames Factory were planning to produce high quality plastic wargames miniatures and the two just came together symbiotically - the one helping to promote the other.

I think the Wargames Factory stuff is really exciting and above all, cheap! Whisper it quietly - but this could be the beginning of the end of metal miniatures. If we can assemble great looking armies for a fraction of the cost why bankrupt yourself with metal?
 
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