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Disclaimer:

1. Some users have made it quite clear that they like the combat system in Age of Mythology just the way it is. This thread is not for you.

2. Some users appreciate the innumerable hours that go into game design and development and don't like to mess with a game's rules, ever. This thread is not for you.

3. Some users have already come up with their own "fix" to the combat system, or found one that works for them, and aren't interested in hearing yet another idea. This thread is not for you.

4. No dead horses were harmed during the creation of this thread.



INTRODUCTION

Age of Mythology is a very cool game with loads of lovely, sculpted, mythological creatures. Some folks enjoy the game just the way it is, while others feel that the very, very time-consuming, "second-guessing and bluffing/rock-paper-scissors" combat system is a rather serious flaw in an otherwise very fun game. The sheer number of proposed battle variants that date back to shortly after the release of the game shows that there are a number of people who share this opinion and yet appreciate this game enough to put the effort into making it more streamlined and playable.

Over the years I have kept up with all those various ideas. While some of them are really very good, none of them have quite achieved the exact results I was looking for. So I have stolen some of these great ideas and developed a battle line variant of my own. I have playtested it and worked out a few kinks, and I feel it is a fairly simple system (once you are familiar with it) that makes combat much more quick and interesting. This is simply what has worked for myself and my game group, and I wanted to share it with the BGG community in case anyone else feels like they could benefit from it. However, I am certainly open to suggestions (particularly from anyone who might actually try it in a game) and can always go back and edit this variant if anything is in need of further tweaking.


WHAT I HOPED TO ACHIEVE

My main goal when I set out to create this variant was to reduce the amount of time required to fight a battle, while minimizing any changes to the feel of the original combats. The current battle system is clearly designed for one-on-one match-ups between the various creatures, so I didn’t want to mess with that too much. Also, if a player comes into battle with a larger army than the other player, I feel that this player ought to have a slight advantage in some way.

Your first read through the rules may leave you thinking that I’ve achieved the opposite result and actually made things more confusing and complicated, but once you’ve put it into practice and gotten one round of battle under your belt, I feel confident that you’ll find it runs quite smoothly.


MY INSPIRATION

As I mentioned, I have stolen some ideas from other BGG users. The first person to suggest a battle line variant for Age of Mythology seems to have been user Cynosure way back in May, 2004:

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/21128

User Friendless proposed the exact same method a year later in a more illustrated manner:

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/61337

And I’m not the first to attempt to shorten the battles. User Psauberer came up with a much different method here...

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/30620

...and user dbmurph22 recently started this very interesting discussion:

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/267658


WHAT YOU'LL NEED

There are 2 files you’ll need to download and print off. First of all, you’ll need the battle board:

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/file/info/32368

Secondly, you’ll need to download the Unit Reference Sheets. The good news is that these reference sheets are immensely useful even if you’re using the game’s original combat system:

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/file/info/32367

And these rules are also available in a dowloadable format here, if you are interested:

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/file/info/32375



THE RULES

Preparation

Both the attacking player and the defending player line up all their units that are participating in the battle in the corresponding “Reserve” boxes on the battle board. This will allow both players to see what they will be up against in the forthcoming battle. No player may retreat until one round of battle is completed.

The Front Line

The defender (D) first picks one of their units and places it in the box at the top of their Front Line, facing their opponent’s Front Line.

-------D

The attacker (A) now picks one of their units and places it opposite and facing the attacker’s first unit, in the box at the top of the attacker’s Front Line. The attacker then picks a second unit from the Reserve box and places it in the box below the first.

A------D
A-------

The defender next picks a second unit from the Reserve box and places it opposite the attacker’s second unit in the Front Line, then picks a third unit and places it below the second unit in the next box of the Front Line.

A------D
A------D
-------D

This continues until all 4 Front Line boxes have been filled, or until both players run out of units. A player must continue to put units into the Front Line even if their opponent runs out of units (one of those units will be used as “support”).

If neither player has any units left in Reserve after the Front Line is established, then the first encounter begins.

Support

If only one player has units left in Reserve, then that player places units in whichever of their own Support (S) boxes they desire (one to each box) until all 4 Support boxes are filled or the player runs out of units. Then the first encounter begins.

(Example)
S------A------D-------
-------A------D-------
-------A------D-------
S------A------D-------

If both players have units left in Reserve, then they each put their Unit Reference Sheets between their Front Line and their Support boxes in such a way that both players can see both Front Lines, but the rest of the battle board is hidden from each other. Both players now secretly and simultaneously place their units in whichever Support boxes they desire (one to each box) until they have filled all 4 Support boxes or have run out of units. Units in support do not have to follow the same “top-down” orientation as the Front Line (ie. there can be gaps in the Reserve Line if there are fewer than 4 units to place within those boxes). After both players are finished, the Unit Reference Sheets are removed, revealing the resulting match-ups.

(Example)
S------A------D-------
-------A------D------S
-------A------D-------
S------A------D------S

In the unlikely situation of one or more players having more than 8 units in the battle, any extra units are left in Reserve. Then the first encounter begins.

Determining number of dice rolled

The 2 units in the top boxes of the Front Line will be the first to fight (the first “encounter”). Look on the Unit Reference Sheets to see how many dice are rolled by each player, according to the match-up that is taking place. This is the “base number”, and it might be modified by certain units’ special abilities. If there is a potential for modification, this will be indicated by a lighter shade of colour on the Unit Reference Sheet.

The base number might also be modified if the players have units in Support. A unit in the Front Line is considered “supported” if it has a unit directly behind it in the Support row. Additionally, if the Front Line unit has a unit below it in the next box of the Front Line but its opponent does not have a unit below it, the unit below which does not have a Front Line match-up is considered to be supporting the unit above it which does. (Any other units below that one do not provide further support.) This could potentially result in 2 units providing support for a single unit in the Front Line.

(Example: The 3rd attacking unit has 2 units in support)
-------A------D-------
-------A------D-------
S------A------D-------
-------A--------------

To determine the amount of dice added to the base number, look up the match-up between the supporting unit(s) and the enemy unit in the Front Line. If the number in the bottom right corner of the box is a positive/purple number, add that many dice to the base number. If the number in the bottom right corner of the box is zero/black or negative/red, no extra dice are added to the base number.

Fight!

When the number of dice has been determined for both players, then the dice are rolled. All 5s and 6s are considered to be “hits”. The player who rolls fewer 5s and 6s loses and must eliminate the unit from the Front Line and return it to his/her supply. Units in Reserve/Support are never eliminated. In case of a tie, no units are eliminated and players move on to the next match-up. Exception: If a supported unit is fighting against a unit who does not have support, the supported unit will win if there is a tie (unless the unsupported unit has an ability to win ties, such as the Medusa, in which case a tie would result in no unit being eliminated).

Remaining encounters in first round of battle

Players then look at the next match-up in the front line, determine whether or not those units are supported, calculate the number of dice, and resolve the encounter in the same manner. This continues until every match-up in the Front Line has been fought, at which point the first round of battle is complete. (There will be a maximum of 4 encounters in a single round of battle.)

Retreat or continue

At this point, the attacker must first decide if they wish to retreat. If they choose to stay and fight another round, the defender will now decide if they will remain or retreat. If they too decide to stay put, all units are placed back in the Reserve boxes and the next round of battle proceeds in the same manner as the first.



MODIFICATIONS TO SPECIAL ABILITIES

Obviously, with this new combat system, a couple of the units’ special abilities (and one of the Attack cards) will need to be tweaked slightly. All units’ abilities are considered to take effect as stated in the standard rules unless specified below.

All nations

Dwarf, Cyclops, Elephant – These units negate the effects of Walls and Towers for an entire round of battle as long as they are in the FRONT LINE of the battle (or for as long as they survive). If they are in SUPPORT, they only negate the effects of Walls and Towers for the specific unit that they are supporting.

Norse

Mythic Norse Hero – For each unit eliminated by the Mythic Norse Hero, the Norse player may take a unit from the Holding Area on his/her Player Board and put it in any box on the battle board. The unit may even replace a unit that is already on the battle board, in which case the unit it replaces goes into the Reserve box.

Greeks

Heroic Greek Hero – If the Heroic Greek Hero defeats an opponent’s hero, the battle immediately ends (no further encounters are fought) and the opponent’s army retreats immediately.

Mythical Greek Hero – (The Mythical Greek Hero’s bonus dice are calculated directly into the Unit Reference Sheets and do not need to be added to the numbers that are already there.)

Egyptians

Wadjet – When an encounter in which a Pharaoh is in either the FRONT LINE or in SUPPORT is about to begin, a Wadjet may be taken from anywhere on the battle board except the FRONT LINE in order to replace him. The Pharaoh is then placed in the RESERVE box.

ISIS” ATTACK card – If the Egyptian player pays for the use of this card, their first unit eliminated in this battle is resurrected and immediately placed in any unoccupied box on his/her side of the battle board.


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My only question is, does this actually prove in practice to be substantially quicker than the system that comes with the game?

Because my biggest beef with what's found in the rules is how long it takes, compared to what impact it has on the game. (Well, that's not my only beef, but the overriding one, at least.)
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DarrellKH wrote:
My only question is, does this actually prove in practice to be substantially quicker than the system that comes with the game?

Because my biggest beef with what's found in the rules is how long it takes, compared to what impact it has on the game. (Well, that's not my only beef, but the overriding one, at least.)


My biggest beef, too, was the very time-consuming nature of the battles and, as I stated at the beginning of the thread, my main goal was to shorten the length of time it took to complete a battle.

Reading through these very verbose rules (I wanted to make sure everything was explained as clearly as possible), you might have your doubts as to whether or not I have accomplished this goal. Obviously, if one side just wants to retreat as fast as possible, this system is going to lengthen combat time because it forces players to first complete one full round of battle. But for those battles in which neither players wishes to give up, my variant speeds up the process in the following ways:
-Provides a set of Unit Reference Sheets which allows players to see at a glance exactly what the various unit match-ups look like (of course, this could be used with the original battle system to speed things up as well)
-Allows ties to occur - no more re-rolling until one unit is eliminated (again, this could be used with the original system)
-The biggest change: The time it took to complete 4 rounds of combat with the original system was very lengthy because with each and every round, both players had to consider every possible match-up between all of their own units and all of their opponent's units. With my battle line variant, choosing each match-up becomes much easier because you see which specific unit you are up against in the Front Line and there are usually only a couple of units on your own side that would make for a favourable combat. Then, when the battle lines are formed, the first round of combat is a breeze as you do a single die roll for each of the 4 units on both sides of the front line.
 
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I appreciate you expounding on that. I'm going to download the files, print them out, and include them in the box. I have no idea when the game will get played again, but those'll be on top, when the box gets opened.
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Thanks for your hard work Josh. If I gear back toward match up based battles, I'll definitely give these a go.
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Hmm...does not your system put a defender in a serious disadvantage? A normal attack involves 4 units per side. There will be no supporting units. The defender is forced to select their units first and the attacker can choose the best match-up.


P.S. I recommend cutting the details in the rules. (You could add some clarifications as comments). It complicates reading and the effect on clarity is minimal. Plus it scares people away.
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Cruelsader wrote:
Hmm...does not your system put a defender in a serious disadvantage? A normal attack involves 4 units per side. There will be no supporting units. The defender is forced to select their units first and the attacker can choose the best match-up.


Actually, sorry for the confusion, but this is not the case at all! The defender will pick the first unit and the attacker will choose the first match-up, but then the attacker must choose a second unit and the defender will then choose the second match-up.

The defender must then choose the third unit and the attacker will choose the third match-up, and finally, the attacker must choose the fourth unit and the defender will choose the fourth match-up (although the fourth won't be much of a choice if each player only has 4 units!).

So in this case, the attacker will have a slight advantage because he/she will get to choose the first and third match-ups, while the defender will choose the second, with the fourth simply being the 2 remaining units. I hope this helps to clarify!


Cruelsader wrote:
P.S. I recommend cutting the details in the rules. (You could add some clarifications as comments). It complicates reading and the effect on clarity is minimal. Plus it scares people away.


Thank you - I very much appreciate your constructive criticism, as it helps me to write better rules. I chose to explain everything as fully as possible so that there would be no confusion (and apparently I even failed at that ). What would help immensely are some illustrations, but perhaps I'll break the rules up with a couple of headings, and see if that makes them more readable. Thanks again for your advice!
 
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Cruelsader wrote:
P.S. I recommend cutting the details in the rules. (You could add some clarifications as comments). It complicates reading and the effect on clarity is minimal. Plus it scares people away.


There! I've added a bunch of headings within the body of the rules, and have even used several coloured letters to "illustrate" some examples. Hope that makes it easier to read!
 
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Wow! That was a quick reply considering that the thread has been inactive for about a month. The rules are much easier to follow now, thanks!

The variant seems interesting. I will probably give it a try next time I play AoM if the group agrees. (However, this may take many months - AoM is not the top game in our list)

My biggest concern with the AoM is the complexity of unit match, which slows down recruiting and battle. Your variant seems to speed up some aspects of the battle, which is a very good thing. However, the basic complexity remains. I wish that someone would take the trouble to come up with an elegant modification that would preserve the variety in units. I know that your aim is to minimize changes - I just could not keep it to myself.

Speaking of fidelity to the original, isn't supporting a bit too good? You write that in your opinion a larger army should have a slight advantage. In the original, numbers mean much less than the ability to second-guess and the variability of units.
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Cruelsader wrote:
Wow! That was a quick reply considering that the thread has been inactive for about a month.


I actually get a notification in my GeekMail every time someone adds a comment to this thread! But then I got busy and forgot that I was going to reply to your latest comment...

Cruelsader wrote:

My biggest concern with the AoM is the complexity of unit match, which slows down recruiting and battle. Your variant seems to speed up some aspects of the battle, which is a very good thing. However, the basic complexity remains. I wish that someone would take the trouble to come up with an elegant modification that would preserve the variety in units. I know that your aim is to minimize changes - I just could not keep it to myself.


User "Psauberer" had made a recommendation for a table to use a single die roll for combat and another user had replied with a link for a file with the table, but now that file doesn't seem to exist (or at least I can't find it anywhere): http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/30620

Cruelsader wrote:

Speaking of fidelity to the original, isn't supporting a bit too good? You write that in your opinion a larger army should have a slight advantage. In the original, numbers mean much less than the ability to second-guess and the variability of units.


Most combats will have the same number of units on both sides, since an Attack card shows the number of units that both sides may fight with. It is only if one player has an Armory or a special god card where you might have an uneven number of combatants. And depending on how the match-ups occur, you might not even get a bonus from your support unit!
 
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>>>
Exception: If a supported unit is fighting against a unit who does not have support, the supported unit will win if there is a tie
>>>

You have it backwards -- the SUPPORTED unit should lose, because the unit being supported has _already_ benefited from extra dice. If the combat had been resolved without that support, it would have lost.

I would leave it as a tie; perhaps retreating both units backwards one row. I'd have winners advance one row (trailing their Support along).

***

As a longtime miniatures player, I'm looking for a rule mechanism where the combats are more than a factor-matching contest. I don't need them to be over with more quickly; I want the feel of a tabletop battle where I can maneuver.

Before reading this idea, I was thinking the same sort of thing, where you have a gridded surface. Each player lays down his cards face down, and then they are flipped. You could add Fog of War where you need to Scout to see the cards.

I want to have maneuver -- sliding the cards from one cell to another to outflank or reinforce.

Actually, I'd be happiest with a way to translate the card values into armies I can play using my favorite miniatures rules.

I really want the boardgame to be a campaign setting that can be completed in a few hours.

Given that this set of rules is said to have purposeful, "strategic" combat, instead of being combat oriented, it might fit the bill.

From reading the descriptions, the block game Wizard Kings might have a lot of what I'm looking for, except it seems to be a pure operational combat game. There's no strategic reason for going to war, no economics or civilization advancement.

BattleLore using the Command and Colors system looks interesting as a "lite" miniatures game, but I have so many figures already and rules that are better that I can't see investing in it.

I'm in the mood to buy something... I'm comparing so many boardgames that I don't know where in the Forums to post a discussion about my quandry.
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Hmm, I don't know how I missed this thread Looks like an interesting variant - I'll have to give it a try!!!

I do have one question, though:
squash wrote:
Egyptians

Wadjet – When an encounter in which a Priest is in either the FRONT LINE or in SUPPORT is about to begin, a Wadjet may be taken from anywhere on the battle board except the FRONT LINE in order to replace him. The Priest is then placed in the RESERVE box.

Was this an intentional change? Unless my copy is different, in the rules as currently written, the Wadjet can trade places with a Pharaoh, not a Priest. Was it intentional that you made the Wadjet use it's ability with a Priest in this variant? If so, I'm just curious as to why?
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Gronak wrote:
>>>
Exception: If a supported unit is fighting against a unit who does not have support, the supported unit will win if there is a tie
>>>

You have it backwards -- the SUPPORTED unit should lose, because the unit being supported has _already_ benefited from extra dice. If the combat had been resolved without that support, it would have lost.

I would leave it as a tie; perhaps retreating both units backwards one row. I'd have winners advance one row (trailing their Support along).



Thanks for your thoughts! I mainly did it that way because I wanted to somehow represent the fact that a larger army should have an advantage in the battle.

Gronak wrote:


***

As a longtime miniatures player, I'm looking for a rule mechanism where the combats are more than a factor-matching contest. I don't need them to be over with more quickly; I want the feel of a tabletop battle where I can maneuver.

Before reading this idea, I was thinking the same sort of thing, where you have a gridded surface. Each player lays down his cards face down, and then they are flipped. You could add Fog of War where you need to Scout to see the cards.

I want to have maneuver -- sliding the cards from one cell to another to outflank or reinforce.

Actually, I'd be happiest with a way to translate the card values into armies I can play using my favorite miniatures rules.

I really want the boardgame to be a campaign setting that can be completed in a few hours.

Given that this set of rules is said to have purposeful, "strategic" combat, instead of being combat oriented, it might fit the bill.

From reading the descriptions, the block game Wizard Kings might have a lot of what I'm looking for, except it seems to be a pure operational combat game. There's no strategic reason for going to war, no economics or civilization advancement.

BattleLore using the Command and Colors system looks interesting as a "lite" miniatures game, but I have so many figures already and rules that are better that I can't see investing in it.

I'm in the mood to buy something... I'm comparing so many boardgames that I don't know where in the Forums to post a discussion about my quandry.


If you go to the "Forums" section on the front page, click on the blue "Post >>". Then at the top of the page, where it says "Select a Forum:", under "Gaming Related" choose "Recommendations". You can then lay out your quandry, and you might be surprised at some of the recommendations you get from other users.

I'll start you off by suggesting you take a look at Conflict of Heroes: Awakening the Bear! – Russia 1941-42. I haven't yet had the pleasure of playing it, but it seems like something new and interesting that you might enjoy.

 
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sigmazero13 wrote:
Hmm, I don't know how I missed this thread Looks like an interesting variant - I'll have to give it a try!!!

I do have one question, though:
squash wrote:
Egyptians

Wadjet – When an encounter in which a Priest is in either the FRONT LINE or in SUPPORT is about to begin, a Wadjet may be taken from anywhere on the battle board except the FRONT LINE in order to replace him. The Priest is then placed in the RESERVE box.

Was this an intentional change? Unless my copy is different, in the rules as currently written, the Wadjet can trade places with a Pharaoh, not a Priest. Was it intentional that you made the Wadjet use it's ability with a Priest in this variant? If so, I'm just curious as to why?


Oops!! Good catch - thanks very much for pointing this out to me! I've corrected this in the thread, and have submitted a new file with the correction as well.
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"Select a Forum:", under "Gaming Related" choose "Recommendations". You can then lay out your quandry,
>

Thanks; I am along way from figuring out all the nuances in the Geek site.

Like the Quickbar -- what's that good for? I'm just opening Tabs in one browser window when I'm comparing various games.
 
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Has anyone tried this variant and wish to comment on how it played out?
 
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not yet, but... I could be persuaded to do a PbF game....
 
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