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Subject: Nyarlathotep Final Battle rss

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Andreas Johansson
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In the final battle v. Nyarlathotep, is a character devoured immediately when he/she loses his/her last clue token, or the next time Nyarlathotep attacks? In other words, does the investigator get a chance to attack after losing the last clue token?
 
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brian
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It seems clear to me: "Any investigator with no Clue tokens left is devoured."

I would say this is clearly the moment you lose 1 and go down to 0.
 
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Adam Mitchell
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It seems clear to me too, but in the opposite direction of the previous poster! Nyarlathotep's Start of Battle ability is that Investigators with no clue tokens are devoured. So okay, you show up with no clues, you die instantly. Fair enough. The rest of the text, however, details his Attack, stating that each Investigator must pass a Lore check or lose one clue token. The attack text goes on to say that "Any Investigator with no clue tokens left is devoured." Since that is part of the Crawling Chaos' attack, I interpret it to mean that you don't die for having no clue tokens until Nyarlathotep's turn to attack.
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Blue (They/She)
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Though usually I find Brian's answers to be spot-on, I'm with Adam on this one. I read Nyar as follows:

Start of battle: No clues? Poof, you're dead. Congrats. Get the other players some drinks while they take care of the dirty work, you slacker.

Nyar's attack: Have more than one clue? Lose one. Sucker.
Have one clue? Lose it. Make sure you have a good roll next round, 'cause it's your last.
No clues? You are dead. Help make drinks or start packing up all bits that aren't being used.
 
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DC
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I will also agree that the devouring happens at the beginning of battle, and during Nyarly's attack. GOO's do things at the start of battle and during their own attacks, not at any other time.

This would extend to the GOO's who devour or otherwise hurt you for not having gate or monster trophies.
 
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David Bell
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I completely disagree with your interpretation. Nyarly's (and any GOO who works like this) attack goes like this: First, investigator checks to see if he loses a clue token. Second, if the investigator has no clues he is devoured. It's all part of the same attack. If the devouring clause had been listed first, or if then been some sort of 'instead' there, then you'd get one more turn. But it's not, and there isn't, so you don't.
 
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DC
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Chipacabra wrote:
I completely disagree with your interpretation. Nyarly's (and any GOO who works like this) attack goes like this: First, investigator checks to see if he loses a clue token. Second, if the investigator has no clues he is devoured. It's all part of the same attack. If the devouring clause had been listed first, or if then been some sort of 'instead' there, then you'd get one more turn. But it's not, and there isn't, so you don't.


I think we've been interpreting the question in two different ways.

1. The way you're reading it -- during Nyarly's attack, if a player has no more clue tokens left, is she immediately devoured? (Answer: yeah, of course)

2. The way the rest of us have been reading it -- during a character's attack, if she spends her last clue token, is she immediately devoured? (I.e. devoured before finishing the attack she spent the token on, before using any special abilities, etc.) (Answer: no)

That may help us all clear things up!
 
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brian
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What I quoted was part of Nyarly's Attack not the Start of Battle (the deference is the Attack includes "left" in it).

There are a couple things going on here:

1) You start the battle with no clue tokens, you are devoured. We all agree and that was not the OP's question.

2) You are attacked by Nyarly during his battle. The attack is a skill check. If you fail, you discard a Clue token. If you have no Clue tokens left, you are immediately devoured. This is what I had in mind when I answered the original question this morning.

3) You use a Clue token during your battle to roll additional dice. It reduces you to 0 tokens. What happens? You still get to "finish" the battle round. The rules clearly state that whatever effect drives you insane/uncouncious/makes you the Goo's lunchmeat still takes place. So if you spend your last Clue token to roll an additional die, the additional die counts. You would not be immediately devoured as you do not check for devoured status until the end of the GOO attack. But for all practical purposes, you are devoured anyway. Your last battle happened when your last die was rolled due to your last Clue token being spent. The exception being Skills or Special abilities that allow you to re-roll failed dice. But I consider that part of your attack. And once your attack is over, you have no means to prevent the devouring of your investigator.


Back to the OP's questions:
Orcoteuthis wrote:
In the final battle v. Nyarlathotep, is a character devoured immediately when he/she loses his/her last clue token, or the next time Nyarlathotep attacks?

OK, so while there may be some timing issues that creep up, for all pracitcal purposes, you are dead once your last Clue token is gone and your battle round is over. If there is some effects I am missing, then you shouldn't be devoured "immediately," but you will be the very next GOO attack and nothing can stop that from happening.

Orcoteuthis wrote:
In other words, does the investigator get a chance to attack after losing the last clue token?

There is no last chance at a battle. Spending a Clue token implies you either used it in battle - which means you are done battling until Nyarly gats a chance - which means you are devoured. Or it implies you used it to pass Lore check to prevent losing a Clue token. But since you have none now, you are still devoured.
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ColtsFan76 wrote:
There is no last chance at a battle. Spending a Clue token implies you either used it in battle - which means you are done battling until Nyarly gats a chance - which means you are devoured. Or it implies you used it to pass Lore check to prevent losing a Clue token. But since you have none now, you are still devoured.

While this example is technically correct, in that it is irrelevant if you die immediately or not from losing your last clue, you are forgetting a couple things.

When the "Epic battle" variant from Kingsport arrives, this will become pertinent. There will be some cards that prevent the AO from attacking at all, so it will be relevant that spending your final clue token for an attack doesn't inherently kill you.

Also, there are Unique items, one in the base game I believe, that prevent the AO from attacking for an entire round.

So everyone seems to have it right here:

Start of Battle: Zero clue tokens? Dead.
Any point after that: Zero clue tokens? Not dead, until the end of Nyarlathotep's attack, if there is one.
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Andreas Johansson
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dcclark wrote:

2. The way the rest of us have been reading it -- during a character's attack, if she spends her last clue token, is she immediately devoured? (I.e. devoured before finishing the attack she spent the token on, before using any special abilities, etc.) (Answer: no)

For the record, this was not the question I meant to ask.

The concrete situation that provoked the question was that we'd brought down Nyarlathotep to a single doom token when the last two characters lost their respective last clue tokens to Nyarlathotep's attack. Do we die immediately or does the game continue for another round (which'd mean we easily kill him off, seeing we were rolling something like 18 attack dice between us)?

Does this clarification change anyone's answer? There doesn't really seem to be a consensus here ...

(FWIW, my own interpretation would be we die immediately, but the two other players read it the other way. We do agree the wording of the rule is ambiguous!)
 
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Orcoteuthis wrote:
The concrete situation that provoked the question was that we'd brought down Nyarlathotep to a single doom token when the last two characters lost their respective last clue tokens to Nyarlathotep's attack. Do we die immediately or does the game continue for another round (which'd mean we easily kill him off, seeing we were rolling something like 18 attack dice between us)?

Does this clarification change anyone's answer? There doesn't really seem to be a consensus here ...

(FWIW, my own interpretation would be we die immediately, but the two other players read it the other way. We do agree the wording of the rule is ambiguous!)


Yes. If you lose your last clue token as a result of Nyar's attack (or the equivalent respective item from battle with another AO), you are devoured. You do not continue to get chances to avoid being devoured by passing Nyar's Lore check when you have 0 clues.

In other words, you get devoured when you fail the check and lose your last clue, not if you fail the check when you already have none.
 
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brian
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So after all that, my simple answer was correct from the beginning. I guess I read too much into the chance to attack again because that was the OP's emphasis as well!

Orcoteuthis wrote:
Does this clarification change anyone's answer? There doesn't really seem to be a consensus here ...

I think we all have consensus as summarized by kungfro earlier:

1) If you start the battle with no clue tokens, you are devoured.
2) If during your attack, you have no clue tokens, you are "safe" until the next GOO attack (and the "next" could be delayed due to certain items or new rules forthcoming).
3) If at the end of the GOO attack, you have no clue tokens, you are devoured.

The confusion came about in that I was only focused on #3 as that was how I read your question (and apparently how you meant it). But people thought I was only focused on #1 and rightly reminded me of possibility #2.
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Craig Rose
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ColtsFan76 wrote:


1) If you start the battle with no clue tokens, you are devoured.
2) If during your attack, you have no clue tokens, you are "safe" until the next GOO attack (and the "next" could be delayed due to certain items or new rules forthcoming).
3) If at the end of the GOO attack, you have no clue tokens, you are devoured.

The confusion came about in that I was only focused on #3 as that was how I read your question (and apparently how you meant it). But people thought I was only focused on #1 and rightly reminded me of possibility #2.


This is how my group has gone against Nyralathotep and the GOOs who work similarly.

Admittedly, I momentarily (and incorrectly) thought investigators could continue their attacks until they failed the lore check and had no more clue tokens to discard (meaning they could continue fighting with 0 clue tokens until they failed the Lore check).

After re-reading Nyarlathotep's attack, it is fairly clear that any investigator with 0 clue tokens at the end of Nyarl's attack is devoured.
 
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Tsugo wrote:
Admittedly, I momentarily (and incorrectly) thought investigators could continue their attacks until they failed the lore check and had no more clue tokens to discard (meaning they could continue fighting with 0 clue tokens until they failed the Lore check).

After re-reading Nyarlathotep's attack, it is fairly clear that any investigator with 0 clue tokens at the end of Nyarl's attack is devoured.


It's all right. Our group did the opposite: for the longest time, we thought that you lose the battle against Shudde M'ell the minute he discards his last rubble token, not when he goes to discard and has zero (this also applies to his non-battle game loss ability). When we found out that we'd been doing it wrong, it effectively bought us one round/surge against him. That revelation bumped Shudde M'ell to second place on our list of hardest AOs, underneath Yog Sothoth.
 
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Andreas Johansson
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Thanks everyone.
 
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