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Subject: The "Ideas for Fixing the Richards" thread. rss

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M Kron
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One of the designers asked to be pointed to a compilation of ideas on balancing the Richards. This thread is intended to gather those ideas. This thread is NOT for debating whether they need fixing at all, there are plenty of threads for that.

I suggest the following format:

IDEA: [Describe the fix.]
PROS: [List perceived benefits.]
CONS: [List possible drawbacks.]

***

Idea: Reed's support power changes.

Pros: Deprives F4 of the resource cards to abuse the combo.

Cons: Significant change from text of card; may not prevent Dr. Doom from having his hat handed to him and becoming petulant.

***

Idea: Villains can re-roll discarded dice.

Pros: Ability is still powerful; on average Doom’s two hit results will become one hit results. (I’m including boost results as two-hitters, because the average value of a boost is 1 and 5/6: the initial hit, plus the five hits on six sides of the boost roll). Sometimes the results will be more, sometimes less, making the investment of a resource card more of a gamble – though usually a good bet. (Some may see this as a con?) Also, there is a (very) thin connection between power and text, in that we can say discarded dice have not been rolled.

Cons: As mentioned, connection to card text is thin. Sue’s support power becomes far less useful against non-boosted villains, though still not useless as it will force one or more hits to be re-rolled, effectively turning 1 hit into 2/3 of a hit. (Perhaps this is a pro?)

* * *

Idea: Limit Mr. and Ms. F’s powers to use on the opponent’s attack roll.

Pros: These powers won’t result in the infliction of a KO; if the powers alone kill Doom, it will be by attrition. That’s a type of fight to which Doom is reasonably well “suited.” (I swear I didn’t intend the pun until I saw it.) Decreases the likelihood that each power will see use in a single combat sequence, as an opponent would need to roll at least one of each on a single roll. Still likely to mop the floor with most villains. (Could be a con?) Limitation is consistent with the defensive-sounding names of the powers (“Containment” and “Invisible Force Fields,” respectively.)

Cons: Probably makes Reed's power too weak. Better might be "discard two dice of your choosing," still limited to attack roll. Limitation is not explicit on the cards.
 
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Andreas Ludwig
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IDEA: Limit Reeds ready and Sues support ability to once per combat sequence.

PROS: Doesn't allow the FF player to use this combo over and over again, forcing him to decide when to use it in a given combat sequence. This way even Dr. Doom could put up a good fight. Could be done with a simple clarification, no text/card change needed.

CON: None that I can see so far
 
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Jorge Arroyo
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IDEA: Use Sue's power as it was usually interpreted before the FAQ. Just cancel the hits, but not the boost ability.

PROS: Text on the card stays the same. Doesn't change the game much, and gives Doom more of a chance by not canceling his Boost ability.

CON: May not be enough of a fix for some people In that case, another option is that Sue only uses her ability after boosting has been done, so she only cancels hits that came after re-rolling, but not the one before.

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Rauli Kettunen
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Ludwig's way is the way we've been playing all along, but for ALL Heroes. Consistency helps, there shouldn't be some who can use their times multiple times and others who are limited to once per. I once listed all the Heroes & Villains who aren't limited, there are 5 Heroes I believe who aren't limited:

Mr & Mrs Fantastic
Thor
Elektra
DD

Also noted that there weren't too many Villains that weren't limited by the wording of their power:

Omega Red
Super Skrull
Sandman
Avalanche
Mystique
Blastaar
Wizard
(also Venom + Bullseye, if you don't restrict Heroes/Allies to once per, can continue to take Initiative)

Simplest way to cover all bases would be to allow ALL powers in the game once per.

As to maka's suggestion, Sue isn't a big deal in general vs Doom. Sure, Doom's suckiness makes her useful 1/6 against other Villains, but vs Doom it's Sue 1/36 (this is playing Sue ignoring the FAQ on her naturally; the way we here play) AND Doom still counts the original hit(s), whereas Reed affects 1/6 AND Doom gets nothing from his double hit(s). Which sounds more powerful to you?

Idea: Make Reed's power like "Innocent Bystanders", i.e. all 2 Hits rolled -> 1 Hit + Apply the "once per combat sequence" to all Heroes and Villains (for 100% coverage + consistence).

Pros: Consistency not only covering ALL the powers in the game, but also since Innocent Bystanders have the same cost as Reed's power, yet the effect of his Ready power is currently over-powered.

Cons: Once per rule weakens a few villains and 5 Heroes. Poor Elektra can only deal 3 KOs/combat sequence instead of current 4 . F4 lovers will not like their duo being nerfed (but I prefer balance > F4 lovers' feelings ).
 
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Andreas Ludwig
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We also played it with the limitation once per combat sequence for all characters, but found that this hurts especially the weak villains and some of the weak heroes. Allowing these characters to use their ability as long as they can fuel them with cards increases their value considerably, otherwise all these 1 KO folks won't be even played as a lead villain or as the troubleshooting hero.

I wouldn't say consistency is of primary concern here, it should be the goal to come a bit closer to the alternate reality of these characters and since these powers and abilities are so different I see no problem in accepting that some can be used more often than others within the specific time frame of combat.
 
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Rauli Kettunen
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Andreas Ludwig wrote:
otherwise all these 1 KO folks won't be even played as a lead villain or as the troubleshooting hero.



Only 1 KOers on the list are Elektra, DD, Mystique, Avalanche and Wizard. 5 total out of what, 20 + 40 (16 hero + 4 nemesis + 50 villains cards - 5x2 agent/backup only cards). Most of the time none of those 5 will not even survive long enough to use their power more than once.

As for not playing them as lead villain, I always try to play a lead villain, regardless of the odds, if you don't play one, your oppo gets free VPs. Regarding 1 KO Troubleshooting Heroes, you're always risking with them. I rarely send DD or Elektra out anyways as Ready, DD sees action on low Crime Threat headlines IF my opponent isn't Arch-nemesis, otherwise, Spidey + DD is my choice for Crime (same 3 reduction + far superior combat; MKs haven't, I don't think ever been short on PPs).

On a side note, I did see DD on a 7 Threat headline in today's game (Evolutionary War scenario, so +1 Threat to all headlines), but my oppo played Crimebuster, and reduced the rolled 6 Trouble to 1...
 
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Stephen Schaefer
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I must be missing something. By my count, Cyclops, Sue and Captain America are also 1KO Heroes.

This would hurt the Knights the most of the group, given two low-level Heroes with shallow dice.
 
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Rauli Kettunen
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The Schaef wrote:
I must be missing something. By my count, Cyclops, Sue and Captain America are also 1KO Heroes.

This would hurt the Knights the most of the group, given two low-level Heroes with shallow dice.


Heh, true, but Sue's never been a Ready char in our games. As for Cyke and Cap, both of their Ready Combat Powers are NOT ONLY limited to once per already, but ALSO limited to a particular choice of combat ability (orange and yellow respectively IIRC).

Quote:
but found that this hurts especially the weak villains and some of the weak heroes. Allowing these characters to use their ability as long as they can fuel them with cards increases their value considerably,


Cap & Cyke can't fuel their abilities endlessly, and I listed Sue in the prior post with hubby, so I guess I skipped her unconsiously.
 
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Jorge Arroyo
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Since people are discussing anyway. I'd add that I'd rather change the game as little as possible as I'm still not convinced a change is needed. Changing Sue instead of Reed accomplishes this much better.

 
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David Anderson
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Was there a problem? I enjoy the game as is. I haven't noticed that it is unbalanced as some suggest. Maybe I'm playing it wrong.
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M Kron
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maka wrote:
Since people are discussing anyway. I'd add that I'd rather change the game as little as possible as I'm still not convinced a change is needed. Changing Sue instead of Reed accomplishes this much better.



Please try to keep it to suggestions. There are lots of threads where you can express this view.
 
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Jorge Arroyo
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kronmc wrote:
maka wrote:
Since people are discussing anyway. I'd add that I'd rather change the game as little as possible as I'm still not convinced a change is needed. Changing Sue instead of Reed accomplishes this much better.



Please try to keep it to suggestions. There are lots of threads where you can express this view.


Hey it wasn't me who started it!
 
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Francesco Nepitello
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kronmc wrote:
One of the designers asked to be pointed to a compilation of ideas on balancing the Richards. This thread is intended to gather those ideas. This thread is NOT for debating whether they need fixing at all, there are plenty of threads for that.


Thank you! And great idea for the format...

Francesco
 
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Francesco Nepitello
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Andreas Ludwig wrote:
IDEA: Limit Reeds ready and Sues support ability to once per combat sequence.


Problem is I don't like very much the concept of 'once per combat sequence', for practical reasons.

What about limiting Reed's power to act only on Attack, and Sue's power on Defend?

PROS: it eliminates the combo problem.

CONS: it eliminates the combo, period taking away from the 'couple' feeling of the previous mechanic.
And it's a major change, as it adds a limitation clearly not implied in the rules.

It should be used in conjunction of enhancing Doom removing his 'Honor code' handicap and making the Doombot upgrade giving him a level 2 Henchmen rating, as more or less Andreas suggested.

Francesco
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Rauli Kettunen
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Francesco Nepitello wrote:
Problem is I don't like very much the concept of 'once per combat sequence', for practical reasons.

Francesco


Sorry, but can't help inquiring, what practical reasons?



Francesco Nepitello wrote:
What about limiting Reed's power to act only on Attack, and Sue's power on Defend?

Francesco


This is practical instead? Not making fun (well, okay, but only a little ), honestly curious. Yes, I'm a proponent of the "once per" blanket cover, since so many heroes and villains are already limited to it.


 
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Rich Moore
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Francesco Nepitello wrote:

What about limiting Reed's power to act only on Attack, and Sue's power on Defend?



Funny thing I had this exact same thought this morning before I even knew this thread existed. It seems thematically in line with the nature of the powers (Sue's is more defensive, Reed's is offensive). Can they use either power on the outwit roll?
 
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Andreas Ludwig
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Quote:
Problem is I don't like very much the concept of 'once per combat sequence', for practical reasons.


I don't see practical reasons, either and Dormammu is already limited by the 'FAQ' to use his ability once per combat sequence.

To have an opinion about the change suggested by Francesco, we will play some test games next weekend.
 
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Matt Epp
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Idea: ALL combat powers may only be used ONCE per combat sequence

Pros: Limits the powerful FF combinations and very few other heroes.

Cons: Makes some villains weaker.
 
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Andreas Ludwig
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Quote:
Makes some villains weaker


It makes the weakest villains even weaker - and that's what we should not do to them....
 
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Francesco Nepitello
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Andreas Ludwig wrote:
Quote:
Problem is I don't like very much the concept of 'once per combat sequence', for practical reasons.


I don't see practical reasons, either and Dormammu is already limited by the 'FAQ' to use his ability once per combat sequence.

To have an opinion about the change suggested by Francesco, we will play some test games next weekend.


I know that the 'once per combat sequence' already exists, but I don't like it anyway and I would like it to appear less often.

Ok, 'practical reasons' wasn't a proper choice of words I simply happen to think that for some reasons some players would need to be reminded of the limitation more often than with another form of limitation, as the 'only attack' or 'only defend' version.

Francesco
 
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Francesco Nepitello
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rcmoore4 wrote:
Francesco Nepitello wrote:

What about limiting Reed's power to act only on Attack, and Sue's power on Defend?



Funny thing I had this exact same thought this morning before I even knew this thread existed. It seems thematically in line with the nature of the powers (Sue's is more defensive, Reed's is offensive). Can they use either power on the outwit roll?


No, that would be only on attack or only on defend.
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Michael Denman
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OK, I see a lot of the same 'fixes' we've already mentioned elsewhere, but I'll chip in my two cents anyway....

Idea: ALL combat powers may only be used ONCE per combat sequence

Pros: Makes the FF powers work just like everyone elses already does.

Cons: None to my eyes, but if this bothers you, how about you can only use a power in one of the three phases(two attacks and outwit).[/q]

IDEA: Use Sue's power as it was usually interpreted before the FAQ. Just cancel the hits, but not the boost ability.

PROS: Consistent with the timing rules in the rulebook.

CON: Realistically, doesn't make much of a difference since Doom can't boost anyway for a while. Does matter when playing Acts of Vengeance though.

maka wrote:
Since people are discussing anyway. I'd add that I'd rather change the game as little as possible as I'm still not convinced a change is needed. Changing Sue instead of Reed accomplishes this much better.


The only 'changes' are the REMOVAL of changes in the FAQ...

 
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