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Subject: Democracy question rss

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Chuck P
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I have a question regarding "losing control of a land area to another empire" in order to get the half price production. Would you consider losing an area that was converted when another empire started, or areas lost as a result of the Civil War event to enable the production bonus?

Thanks!
 
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Daniel Peters
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statistical wrote:
I have a question regarding "losing control of a land area to another empire" in order to get the half price production.

Actually, the half price production is for losing an area (not necessarily land) to an empire of another player. [/nitpick]
statistical wrote:
Would you consider losing an area that was converted when another empire started, or areas lost as a result of the Civil War event, to enable the production bonus?

I'd say yes to both, since the rule doesn't specify losing an area as a result of conflict.
 
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Harry Rowland
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Good question and I would agree with Daniel that if it doesn't specify then you gain it no matter the reason.
 
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Zeljko
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Harry Rowland wrote:
Good question and I would agree with Daniel that if it doesn't specify then you gain it no matter the reason.


An Empire looses land or sea area, in the same turn gets democracy (somebody played a card on it). Is it entitled to have benefit of halved cost?
 
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Harry Rowland
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Only if it is democratic before it loses an area.

PS To clarify my previous answer you only get half cost if you lose an area to another empire. That does NOT include if you lose control but the other empire does not gain control (e.g. they both wipe each other out in the area, or you use a volcano or some other device to make the democratic empire lose control).
 
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Daniel Peters
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Harry Rowland wrote:
Only if it is democratic before it loses an area.

The most natural interpretation of the rules as written would indicate otherwise.

Consider also the analogy between the unit-cost-discount effect of Democracy and the glory penalty effect (for the unprovoked takeover of land by a Democratic empire). Both of these rules depend on what has (or has not) happened to the empire on that turn or the previous turn.

Example: Empire A attacks (non-Democratic) empire B. Empire B becomes Democratic later that turn. Next turn, empire B attacks empire A and conquers land. Does empire B suffer the -1 glory penalty?

A "yes" would be rather bizarre (and unfair, I think). It should not matter, for this purpose, whether the (now-)Democratic empire was Democratic when it was attacked.

So if we accept the quoted ruling, then we're breaking the natural symmetry between two analogous rules.
 
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Harry Rowland
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Yes is how we play. It would seem odd say for Nazi Germany suddenly become democratic post-Nazi Germany allowing it to freely attack England, USA and Russia in 1946 for them attacking the nazis in 1945.
 
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Daniel Peters
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But imagine if the Russians had ditched Stalin and turned Democratic in 1943. Then they'd get a penalty for retaking territory from the Germans...?
 
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Zeljko
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Harry Rowland wrote:
Yes is how we play. It would seem odd say for Nazi Germany suddenly become democratic post-Nazi Germany allowing it to freely attack England, USA and Russia in 1946 for them attacking the nazis in 1945.


To summarize:

Prerequisites for Democracy benefit of halving costs is met only if an empire was democratic both at the turn when it was attacked and at the turn it is producing.

Subquestion:
Democratic empire was attacked. Later in the same turn, during Civilise it lost deomcracy by strange omen. Even later during the same turn it adopts democracy again. Is it able to produce at halved cost next turn?

Similar question can be made for attacking without penalty. Democratic empire was attacked, loses deomcracy, adopts democracy. Can it attack next turn?

According to the logic you follow, my guess is that it will not have that benefit. You may say that democracy benefits are tied to the democracy marker. Is that right?
 
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Zeljko
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Another Democracy question:

Empire A is democratic.

Game Turn 1: Empire B is started in one area of empire A. Empire A is considered to be attacked so it gets it costs halved and may attack land areas of Empire B without suffering -1 penalty.

Game Turn 2: Does Empire A get democracy benefit in this turn also, even if it was 'used' in previous turn - Game Turn 1?

I think answer is yes, but would like it to be clarified.

 
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Daniel Peters
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The duration of a benefit is limited by the turns, not limited by any prior use of the same benefit.

So that's a yes.

(There's another issue, though: The halved costs come from losing an area, not just from being attacked. So if the attack fails, in your example, then empire A's costs will not be halved.)
 
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Harry Rowland
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"Subquestion:
Democratic empire was attacked. Later in the same turn, during Civilise it lost deomcracy by strange omen. Even later during the same turn it adopts democracy again. Is it able to produce at halved cost next turn?"

HR> Yes.

"Similar question can be made for attacking without penalty. Democratic empire was attacked, loses deomcracy, adopts democracy. Can it attack next turn?"

HR> Yes.
 
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Harry Rowland
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"Empire A is democratic.

Game Turn 1: Empire B is started in one area of empire A. Empire A is considered to be attacked so it gets it costs halved and may attack land areas of Empire B without suffering -1 penalty.

Game Turn 2: Does Empire A get democracy benefit in this turn also, even if it was 'used' in previous turn - Game Turn 1?"

Yes, you get it for this and the previous (the turn of attack) turn.
 
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