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Brass: Lancashire» Forums » Rules

Subject: First Card Play rss

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Scott B
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I am loath to bring this up again, but I think I need a definitive answer to the following question. Okay, the rules are pretty clear that you play one card on the first turn of the game. But, it says: "You can combine two actions into one (see below)." The combine two actions into one is basically toss two cards to build anything anywhere, assuming you're connected. We took this to mean, on the first turn, you get a phantom card played with your one card so you can basically build anything anywhere you want. Did we play this correctly? Am I misunderstanding what the "Combining Actions" action is? I guess I don’t know exactly where you can build on the first turn assuming you don't want to build where the location cards you have allow. Any help is appreciated.
 
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Jack Leonard
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You didn't play it correctly. I suppose a phantom card is fair if everyone gets to use it, but I don't know how you came up with the idea.

Each player gets only one action on the first turn of the canal phase, thus you have no second action to combine with your first.The fact that you only get to use one action is due to the number of cards in the deck [it has to work out evenly for 3 and 4 player games with a minimm of fuss] and to keep the starting player from having to much of an advantage in a completely open board.

Your options on the first round, so far as building industries go, are:

A.) Play a location card, and build any appropriate industry in that location.

B.) Play an industry card to build in any location with that industry marker. For the first turn only, you are considered to be connected to that location for the purposes of using the card.
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Malachi Brown
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DocFool wrote:
B.) Play an industry card to build in any location with that industry marker. For the first turn only, you are considered to be connected to that location for the purposes of using the card.

I believe this would be more correctly stated as, "Any time a player has no markers on the board that player is considered connected to any location for the purposes of building an industry using an industry card."

In other words, if you choose to develop or take a loan with your first action, you can still use an industry card to build in any (valid) location. The other way this can come up is if a player does not build any tech level 2+ industries before the rail era and they are left with no industries on the board.
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Jack Leonard
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In rereading the rules, I will partially concede that Malachi's is a more thorough interpretation. Option B only works "If you play an industry card as your very first 'build' card..." [p. 4] This is just another reason why one should be certain to have some tech level 2 or higher industries on the board by the end of the canal period.

It's probably a moot point. With the possible exception of development [i.e. someone else built an ironworks], building really is the most sensible action in the first round, as one's options for locations will quickly become more limited as the game progresses.
 
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Graeme Christie
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DocFool wrote:
In rereading the rules, I will partially concede that Malachi's is a more thorough interpretation. Option B only works "If you play an industry card as your very first 'build' card..." [p. 4] This is just another reason why one should be certain to have some tech level 2 or higher industries on the board by the end of the canal period.


Actually, if you read the rules on the top of Page 4 in the play Cards section it says:
Brass Rulebook wrote:

EXCEPTIONS: On the very first turn of the Canal Period you only play building in must be connected to a constructed port by canal/rail links.
one card. You can combine two actions into one (see below).


And later, "Below" on page 5 at the end of the Build industry section it says:
Quote:

Combining actions You can combine your two actions into one
action. In this single action you can build in any available space in
Lancashire. You must still abide by all of the rules concerned with
building an Industry counter. You must still play two cards.


Taking these two rules then Docbooks interpretation is in fact more correct. However, if you happen to notice the rule on Page 4 under Build Industry, playing the right card it says:

Quote:
If you play an Industry card as your very first ‘build’ card then you can
build in any space that matches the symbol on the card.


Martin Wallace later "clarifies" this rule in this forum post as

frog1 wrote:
Just to answer both points, you can use either an Industry or Location card in the first round of play. An Industry card will allow you to build in any location that matches the symbol on the card.

If at the start of the Rail period you do not have any industry counters on the board then an Industry card will allow you to build in any location that matches the symbol, as you would do in the very first round of play.

Hope that is clear.

Martin W


While this makes an attempt as giving a definitive ruling on the subject it

a) Contradicts the rules as written without acknowledging this in any way.

b) Makes no reference to the rules at the top of page 5 in the play cards section stating that you can combine two actions into one in your first turn to build anything anywhere.

At this point I am taking the stance that combine two actions into one rule is erroneous and superseded by the rule that you can build at any location with the appropriate industry card at any time you have no other in
dustries on the board. This is in line with malachi's interpretation above. However this has little to do with what is actually written in the rules.

I really wish Mr Wallace would put down the bong for 5 minutes when he attempts to make a rule clarification. I have just traded away Perikles unplayed because I was not even going to attempt trying to play the game without a complete rules rewrite. MW contradicted himself and the rules as written time and time again in the forums, only making the rules less clear with every statement.

Brass is much much better. The rules are very close to playable as written. Most clarifications MW has made have been easy to interprete, other than this issue, which is not a show stopper.

If you can live with the the fact that moving ahead 7 pounds on the income track actually means moving ahead 7 spaces on the income track, which is likely to actually equal about 3 pounds and fifty pence, the game could almost be considered solid.

Anyway, Nuff Said. I am off to do some geekmodding now so I can save up for my Rules Lawyer microbadge.

Edit: fixed typo changing with to without in point a) above.
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Darrell Hanning
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chomama wrote:
I have just traded away Perikles unplayed because I was not even going to attempt trying to play the game without a complete rules rewrite.


Strangely enough, Perikles seems to work just fine, once you've played through a turn or two, to get it down.

But Martin does seem to have a predilection for leaving little rules knots where he goes.

The implication of the phrasing in the rules, as printed and taken together, is that one can use the first round card as some sort of "wild" card, provided they are building an industry. The OP is not the only one who took that combination of statements as printed in such a way. Having said that, I am more comfortable with instead using a location or industry card as they are normally intended, with the caveat that there is no connectivity requirement, for the first build of each of the two turns/rounds/phases/eras (Canal and RR, whatever they're called).

Mr. Wallace is far from being the only designer to have ever suffered from this sort of thing, but historically one finds a developer with a more meticulous disposition, and keeps him or her handy.
 
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Ken
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chomama wrote:
While this makes an attempt as giving a definitive ruling on the subject it

a) Contradicts the rules as written with acknowledging this in any way.


I've only read through the rules, but I don't read it this way. This is what the rule you reference on pg. 4 says.

Quote:
b) Makes no reference to the rules at the top of page 5 in the play cards section stating that you can combine two actions into one in your first turn to build anything anywhere.


It doesn't need to. It's an exception to the "normal" build rules and therefore doesn't require you to use two actions to build anything, anywhere. So on your first turn, you can take two actions, one of them may be "build," and that will allow you to do so with only one card.

I'll grant that it's not the most intuitive rule ever, but having only read the rules, I took it to mean exactly what Mr. Wallace said it meant from the beginning. I still get two actions in the first round, but if I want to build, I can do it using a single card.

So I guess I'm not particularly seeing your point here...
 
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Waffles? Arooo!
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Quote:

EXCEPTIONS: On the very first turn of the Canal Period you only play building in must be connected to a constructed port by canal/rail links.
one card. You can combine two actions into one (see below).



Quote:
Combining actions You can combine your two actions into one
action. In this single action you can build in any available space in
Lancashire. You must still abide by all of the rules concerned with
building an Industry counter. You must still play two cards.


On the first turn you must play one card, you can combine two actions into one, but if you combine two actions into one, you must play two cards.

I think that's the contradiction being pointed out. However, I don't think it's a major problem...
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Ken
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This is sort of ignoring the existence of the exception, though. Since you don't need to play two cards to build wherever you like, and (if I remember the rules correctly) you're barred from playing two cards, on the first turn you basically get the benefit of combining actions without having to do it.

So there's an exception that's in the rules, a mechanic that makes combining actions sub-optimal, and a rule that prevents you from playing a second card in the first place. I guess my question is - why would you want to take the combined action in the first place?
 
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Graeme Christie
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Whooah nelly. Everybody back up for a second. Put down the web browser and back away slowly...slowly .. ok ... good now ...


Luthrin wrote:

On the first turn you must play one card, you can combine two actions into one, but if you combine two actions into one, you must play two cards.


No no no no no.

perfalbion wrote:

It doesn't need to. It's an exception to the "normal" build rules and therefore doesn't require you to use two actions to build anything, anywhere. So on your first turn, you can take two actions, one of them may be "build," and that will allow you to do so with only one card.


Argh, no. Sheez. These intepretation of the rules are exactly what I'm talking about.

You only get one action, and you only play one card in the first turn. You do not get two actions as explained in this thread. I cannot find the definitive Ruling from Martin Wallace but this forum post infers it pretty clearly.

Martin Wallace wrote:

Hi,

You cannot sue the 2 for 1 action to build canal/rail links. You can only build links if they are connected to one of your industries or another of your canal/rail links.

In the very first turn you cannot build a link, as you do not have an industry to connect to. You could only build or take a loan.

Hope that is clear.

Martin W


Of course Martin does a Martin Wallace here and fails to mention that you could also develop on the first turn... but you get the gist. You cannot build a link in the first turn because you do not have an industry and by association you could not build and industry and a link because You only have one action in the first turn

Edit: fixed broken string in quote tag




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Jack Leonard
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I believe that all this confusion comes from this passage on page 4:

Brass Rulebook wrote:
EXCEPTIONS: On the very first turn of the Canal Period you only play one card. You can combine two actions into one (see below).


The problem here is that the exceptions are written together as one paragraph, which causes some readers to take them as one rule. Really, they should be a pair of bullet points, the first stating that only one action may be taken on the first turn of the canal period, the second reminding us that we can combine two actions into one build by playing two cards.

This one may not be Wallace's fault so much as the typesetter's.
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Ken
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chomama wrote:
Whooah nelly. Everybody back up for a second. Put down the web browser and back away slowly...slowly .. ok ... good now ...


I think you're reading more tone into the replies than is actually there.

Quote:
Of course Martin does a Martin Wallace here and fails to mention that you could also develop on the first turn... but you get the gist. You cannot build a link in the first turn because you do not have an industry and by association you could not build and industry and a link because You only have one action in the first turn


OK, I'm still confused by your issue.

The rules clearly state the number of actions in the first turn (and I'm happy to accept your correction). They also state an exception to the normal build rules to allow you to get an industry down. So you're prevented (by rule) from combining actions because you only have one action to take. You're permitted to build industry using a single card for your first construction. You can't build links because you have nothing on the map to connect to, and it's therefore not a valid action to take.

It seems to me that you're giving Mr. Wallace a bit of a hard time because you're pointing to the rules on combined actions (on pg. 5), when by rule you can't use them.

But I may not be latching on to the issue you're discussing because I haven't actually played. If that's the case, I'm happy to bow out of the discussion.
 
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Sheamus Parkes
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Goodness I wish Martin would hire a rules editor. This is pretty sad.
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David Abel
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Getting back to the OP’s question.

I’m troubled by this statement in your question Landstander.

Landstander wrote:
The combine two actions into one is basically toss two cards to build anything anywhere, assuming you're connected.


No connection is required for a combined action build.

When building and industry tile, you can play cards one three ways:
1. Play a location card. This allows you to build an available industry in that location.
2. Play an industry card. This allows you to build an available industry in a location you are connected to.
3. Play two cards as a combined action. This allows you to build as if you had the location card you needed to build on any available industry spot you wanted. No connection is required for this build; treat it as if you are playing a location card.

How the two (different) exceptions previously mentioned interact during play.

Exception 1: There is only one action (card/play) on the first turn. You are allowed only one action (card/play) on the first turn. No combined action is allowed. It's not necessary.

Exception 2: Playing of an industry card as a first build. You may play an industry card as your first build (during the first turn or a subsequent turn). The connection requirement is suspended as you have no industries on the board from which to build from.

This can occur during the Rail Phase as well, if all your previous builds were level 1 buildings that were removed at the end of the Canal Phase.


So, because of Exception 1, you may only play one card on your first turn. Because of Exception 2, that one card may be an industry card used to build that industry anywhere on the board where that industry may legally be built. Again, no connection is required.


 
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Graeme Christie
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DocFool wrote:
I believe that all this confusion comes from this passage on page 4:

Brass Rulebook wrote:
EXCEPTIONS: On the very first turn of the Canal Period you only play one card. You can combine two actions into one (see below).


The problem here is that the exceptions are written together as one paragraph, which causes some readers to take them as one rule. Really, they should be a pair of bullet points, the first stating that only one action may be taken on the first turn of the canal period, the second reminding us that we can combine two actions into one build by playing two cards.

This one may not be Wallace's fault so much as the typesetter's.


Oh - my - god. I never even considered for one second that these two statements could possibly be unrelated to each other. I have gone over this section of the rules at least 20 times.

In this case, yes, this invalidates my point b) above.

Edit: Actually it pretty much invalidates my whole post.shake
 
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Scott B
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Okay, well, to sum up what I've read here:

On your first turn, you play one card, and you can do one of the following:
a) Take 1 loan for 10, 20, or 30 pounds
b) Develop 1 or 2 tiles away for 1 or 2 iron (which you must buy)
c) Build in the location on the card (if using a location card)
d) Build the industry on the card, in any location (if using an industry card)

Now, as far as the "Combining Actions" action is concerned, I think we were playing right, but only by accident. Basically, it sounds like you toss two cards, and they're magically transformed into any single location you want. Meaning you can build any appropriate industry in any location you want, regardless of connectivity (keeping coal and iron availability in mind) - and that's your whole turn.
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David Abel
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Yep, that's it.
 
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Larry Levy
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Just to try to polish this off, Martin has indeed ruled that the two exceptions in that paragraph are unrelated and that you can't combine actions during the first turn because you only get one action. I know because I asked that very question in one of the threads and that's how he responded. So don't kick yourselves, Scott and Graeme, it's a very unfortunately formatted paragraph.

And Scott, your answer is correct on any turn but the first, where you can't combine actions.
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Richard Young
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There have been quite a number of discussions triggered by the unfortunate paragraph that contains two totally unrelated points (that you have only one action on the very first turn of the game; and, oh by the way, on those turns where you have two actions, you can combine them to build anywhere on the board - essentially turning one of the two cards you need to play into a location card of your choice).

The special circumstance you find on your very first build of the game of not being connected to anything as there is nothing to connect to, can also apply on your first build of the Rail Period as well. Martin has said on a number of occasions that any time you find yourself in that situation, the special rule on using an industry card to build applies (ie, not having to be connected to the location but still requiring a legal source of coal if necessary). It could well be that several actions (developing or taking loans for example) are taken before that first build is undertaken at which point the special circumstance for build cards would apply.

Martin admits that some of the rules for building take some getting used to but the way the rules were formatted didn't help...
 
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