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Subject: Warning! Foul and obscene language rss

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Laurence Parsons
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Can somebody explain to me why the game is sold as suitable for ages 10+ yet the "scene setting" at the front of the rulebook contains foul and obscene language (including 4 instances of the f-word).
If you intend to market the game to this age group, then please moderate the language accordingly. If you absolutely have to use obscene language in the game materials, please post a warning on the box and set the age-group to a higher bracket; much as you would in a film.
Thankyou for causing some embarassing moments when I gave this to my son for his birthday. We haven't got around to playing it yet.
I'm not happy.
 
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Troy Losse
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The game is suitable in complextity for a 10 yr old. Not content.
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Tokelau
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What the f**k u talkn' bout dips***?devil
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Glen Cote
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One man's "foul and obscene" is another man's "sentence enhancer"

Dude, seriously, it has been mentioned all over BGG and other sites that have done reviews that the F-bomb is dropped in the background material (Tom Vasel mentioned it in his review on this site and on his podcast.) You might wanna do a little more research next time.
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Franco
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Wow, do all of you miss the point! That kind of content should be front and centre on the game box, which can be found in toy stores right next to Webkinz dolls.
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Glen Cote
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It's a game about war and violence in a post-apocalyptic world. I think harsh language is the least of your worries...
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Scott Everts
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I bet the Z-Man version will be sanitized. I expect the original Polish publisher didn't think it was a big deal. Depending on country it may not be a problem. Such as many European countries don't have a problem with nudity but the US does. But Europeans have trouble with violence and US doesn't.
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Mark Tyler
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Thanks for the warning, Laurence. Like you, I somehow missed the other warnings all over BGG. You've helped trim my want list by one.
 
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Yoki Erdtman
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m_r_tyler wrote:
You've helped trim my want list by one.
Seriously? Over foul language. I guess I'm tough skinned. I still think they could have done without the F-word though, and am sure Z-Man will edit it out of their edition.
 
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Bruno Valerio
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m_r_tyler wrote:
Thanks for the warning, Laurence. Like you, I somehow missed the other warnings all over BGG. You've helped trim my want list by one.


Just buy Z-Man edition... it should be F...lawless.

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Laurence Parsons
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trojanman wrote:
The game is suitable in complextity for a 10 yr old. Not content.

uh, no. If a game has 10+ on the outside, I'd expect it to be suitable for a 10 year old in its entirity.
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Laurence Parsons
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cobalt60 wrote:
It's a game about war and violence in a post-apocalyptic world. I think harsh language is the least of your worries...

I'm not opposed to "harsh language" per se (although I don't think the game would have suffered for the lack of it), I'm opposed to that sort of language in a box labelled 10+.
As for the theme, there are plenty of "war and violence" games that are suitable for 10-year-olds. I don't have a problem with them either.
My point is that if you're going to include young kids in your target audience, make sure the content is suitable. Whereas if you want to make it more "gritty", make sure it's labelled as such.
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Mark Tyler
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Oblivion wrote:
Just buy Z-Man edition... it should be F...lawless.

Ah yes. I see according to boardgamenews.com it should be out in July or August. Okay, the Z-man edition is back on my want list.
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Henri Harju
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This reply is not directed at anybody. I'm just commenting the violence vs. swear words thing.

Now, this is one of the many things that I think are wrong in the this days society. People are perfectly indifferent if their kids play video games where their alter egos kill zombies with shotgun or steal cars or break whatever moral codes the society used to have, but

damn if some one swears even once while doing this. It instantly becomes foul. Unacceptable. Vile. Satanist activity.

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Petr Zikeš
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Ahhhhh, some of you British and Americans are dissemblers. Your children are watching porno-tv when you are at work, playing videogames full of violence, playing wargames from age of 6 and you scream if in the boardgame full of shooting and killing is one "f...ing" word.



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Andreas
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Really funny, that you buy a wargame for your son aged 10 and then you complain about the F-word...
My child will not see any violent game (board, video) at this age, for sure...
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Laurence Parsons
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The game itself is no more a wargame than Chess. I have no problem whatsoever in playing this with my son. I think the age description on the box is reasonably accurate (10+). There is no more blood, gore and violence than you see on a chess board.
The introductory text (in my opinion) is not suitable for a 10-year-old.

And to the poster who believes my sons are watching porn-tv during the day - don't judge others by your standards. I believe myself to be a responsible parent - one who takes an active interest in my sons' upbringing, and I am well aware of what they can and do get up to, and they know it too. When you are old enough to have children, I hope that you will also take a responsible attitude to them. Yes there are people who use the TV as a babysitter, and don't care what their kids do as long as they don't get in the way. I'm not one of them.
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Petr Zikeš
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My poster was not meaned pure seriously or against you. I have two daughters of age 3 and 6 and I´m surprised, which words they take home from school or playschool. It was written as a joke but I think there is piece of true in it.
Freduk, by the way we both are citizens of EnglishTown on BSW

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Andreas
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freduk wrote:
The game itself is no more a wargame than Chess. I have no problem whatsoever in playing this with my son. I think the age description on the box is reasonably accurate (10+). There is no more blood, gore and violence than you see on a chess board.
The introductory text (in my opinion) is not suitable for a 10-year-old.


Then I wonder how you explain this game to your son. After all, units are shooting and eliminating, there are bombs and other clearly violent and military stuff...
Chess is much more abstracted...
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Giles Pritchard
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It is lucky indeed that both of you live in countries where you are comfortable enough to be able to shield your children from violence. I am a teacher, and am constantly needing to adjust my attitudes when it comes to hearing about what kids get up to and see at home, whether it is on television or in real life, and Australia is no more violent a place to live than Germany or England.

At 10 years old, if playing a board game involving some abstracted violence is all they have had to do with violence they will be rare children indeed. Good luck to you Andreas, but the best thing a parent can do is love and respect their child, and frankly, the fact that freduk is sitting down to actually play a game with his son is of far greater consequence and importance than some violent overtone.

I congratulate you freduk, on taking the time, love and attention to sit down and challenge yourself and your son in such an interactive and fun way. I hope he grows up remembering the wonderful times and conversations he had with his father over a game or two.
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Andreas
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You are right, of course. But looking at my game shelf I find immediately around 50 games to play with my child that contain NO violence/war at all...
Same is true for TV or video games. What is happening in kindergarten or school is difficult/impossible to control, but at least at home I have the choice...
 
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Franco
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Again, I think most of you are missing the point.

Violence, nudity, and whatever else is out there that one culture or another (to run with the stereotypes a lot of you are spouting) finds objectionable has to be dealt with on a family-by-family basis. You give parents the tools to decide for themselves what they want their children seeing. So, whether or not swearing is important in a game about violence is irrelevant ... the only thing that matters is that a parent can make an informed decision before buying -- not after.
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Чебурашка, ты настоящий друг!
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freduk wrote:
Can somebody explain to me why the game is sold as suitable for ages 10+ yet the "scene setting" at the front of the rulebook contains foul and obscene language (including 4 instances of the f-word).


To answer your question, although it was probably rhetorical -- due to the ubiquity of English-language junk culture, many non-native speakers of English, even those who barely have any command of the language, know English swear words. There are therefore many who use them all the time. However, because English is not their native language, these words don't really have have the impact on people around them that swear words in their own language would -- they are just sounds, and lack any emotional force. They therefore have a very casual attitude towards them. Neuroshima Hex is originally a Polish game, and shows this same attitude to English swear words. Would a lot of German fathers be a bit annoyed to find words like "Wichser" and "verpiss Dich" in the rulebook when they were explaining it to their children? I imagine so. It's not just the "Anglo-Saxons" who worry about these things.
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Giles Pritchard
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It's not at school or kindergarten that is the concern often. The home, wider community and world is filled with all sorts of not very nice things.

The kinderspiele der jahres winner was Der schwarze Pirat, a game where children have the chance to loot each other. Of course it is a leap to imply that playing this game would encourage children to grow up admiring murderous theives, but you could argue that the game encourages children to think that stealing off other players/people is a viable and acceptable way of 'getting ahead'. Most people would think you are mad of course, but you could.

There is also the more philosophical question of whether concealing a person from something like violence or aggression will make them less violent or aggressive, or whether exposing them to violence or aggression will make them more violent and aggressive. This is in part a nature vs nurture argument: could a person who grew up in an environment where there was zero exposure to violence become a violent person. Most people would say yes.

I grew up playing with toy guns as a child, will that exposure/experience mean I am more likely to commit a gun related act of violence? Because I simulated combat in my childish way when I was in school, does it mean that I am a more violent or aggressive person than someone who did not?

These are rhetorical questions, and you never raised them, I did. But the question arises: what will an exposure to a violently themed game like Neuroshima Hex, or Memoir 44, or Heroscape cause?

You certainly have the choice as to what and how they get exposed to things, and I commend you, because you obviously care and worry for them - an admirable and important thing - ultimately it is for you to decide. You need to base your judgement off sound reasoning, objectivity and a thorough understanding of the child involved.

I think that any effect of playing a violently themed game (like the one in question) is negligible, I personally don't think it will make an iota of difference. Do I have any evidence to support my view? No. Are there games I wouldn't play with my kids? Yes. While I wouldn't encourage my kids to play something like Grand Theft Auto, I wouldn't have so much of an issue with Neuroshima Hex. Why? Well I think there is a gulf of differences between the two.

Would I play Neuroshima Hex or Memoir 44 or Heroscape with my kids? Yes. Boys I know tend to have a fascination with war, death and violence, not obssessivly so, but it is there to some degree. Aggression is a big and important part of the human psyche after all. This aggression should never be ignored, rather it should be allowed to exist, but channelled along socially accetable paths. It is ok to be competitive, but be humble also, it is ok to tackle hard in a game of AFL, just don't go beyond what is required or break the rules of 'sportsmanship', it is ok to attack me in this game, you are trying to win the game, but don't take it beyond the context of the game.

There are subtle lines of what is accetable and what is not acceptable. There are games I would never play with a child (and to be honest, I wouldn't want to play many/any of them myself) because of the theme. Is the theme of Neuroshima Hex violent, of course it is, it is a war game of sorts after all. But is it so violent, or explicit that exposure to it will have a negative impact on a child? I don't think so - at least not when it is used responsibly and the person using the game has taken the child into account when choosing. I think it is great to hear, in this case, that freduk is playing games with his kids. I see so many young kids who come to school from tragic and love deprived backgrounds that hearing from and about parents actually spending that quality time with their kids is a warming story to read.

This is a very interesting discussion - thank you for encouraging me think about it more!

Context and subtle shades of gray are everything I think, and in this uncertain place, we must all make the best judgements we can.

Just my thoughts.

Cheers,

Giles.
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Gary Christiansen
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Good grief. People who object to language and people who excuse it, both too readily.

Swear words are a valuable part of the vocabulary, but they lose meaning if used trivially or inconsequentially. It never ceases to amaze me how many people get all bent out of shape over a few uses of swear words, often where their meaning is appropriate to a situation, yet never seem to catch on when the words are used meaninglessly as fillers in sentences. Using them for shock value when they actually do benefit where situationally they help relieve stress of a specific event is going to render them useless for the second purpose.

I'm both amused and dismayed at this entire exchange. Why? Because it shows we have folk on both sides being silly. Don't buy the game if you object to the swear words. Don't expect to be taken too seriously if you over use the words in question.

What a peculiar, nay, bizarre thing to worry about though when you're putting concepts about killing in the same kids' hands.
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