Paul M
United States
Elkhart
Indiana
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Firstly, Serenissima is an awesome game. It is one of the first euros I owned, and it's also one of the best-looking games I own. For an early euro, it contains a lot player-conflict, screwage, and antagonism (Imagine going last on the first turn and building a pirate ship - yeah!). The gems in Cyrena always make my games interesting.

Unfortunately, Serenissima is also a comparatively long game. Good play is generally rewarded with a strong finish, which is what the winning conditions boil down to. All scoring is based on who controls which ports after the last turn has ended, and that's it. Turn order on the last turn is HUGE. If you go first on the last turn, you have almost no chance of winning unless you have valuable ports full of defenders and more ships than everybody else combined, because if you're winning, they're coming after YOU, and if you're not winning, good luck catching up if you have to go first!

The author's goal was to place importance on the last turn, so I don't want to completely change that, but I do think it should be mitigated. I imagine some sort of system where victory points are awarded for controlled ports (full ones definitely, not-full ones maybe?) after each turn, and then in some victory-point-multiple after the last turn. So let's say I control Creta all game, fill the port with goods, but somebody jacks it away from me on the last turn - I get zero points for my efforts, and I don't think that is fair. Let's say I was given one point for each turn I controlled it during the game, and the player who controls it at the end of the game gets 5 points. That's just an example off the top of my head, and obviously more thought and playtesting needs to go into it, but I wanted to post my ideas here first and see if I was way off base or if other people felt the same way and would have some interest in developing some alternate scoring methods. Fire away.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Simon Lundström
Sweden
Täby
flag msg tools
Now who are these five?
badge
Come, come, all children who love fairy tales.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
It goes off very well with me. Sometimes it seems all the trade during the game is there only to gear up for the final round, where like 1500 ducats go for the turn order.

However, as the game is long, having VPs during the game might cause a "eh… I'm losing and there's no crap I can do about it". Then again, that is true for the game as it is now anyway, so it wuold probably only improve.

i'd like to see some sort of mitigation not giving the last guy in the turn such a HUGE advantage when it comes to moving ships. Like, having to ask permission to LEAVE a space (apart from "pass through").

So do brainstorm.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Male
United Kingdom
Woburn Sands
Beds
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Scoring after each turn is an interesting idea, and it turns up in many games but it would change the character of this game. With money hidden and the possibility of port capture on the last turn, it is rarely certain who is winning at any time. I like this uncertainty, and the idea that everyone is in with a chance at the end.

I agree that going last on the final turn is often important, it can produce a 10point turn around as the last player hits a full-medium port. Sometimes, it can be game-losing. I have seen the first players on the last turn blockade the Med at Tunis and Sicily (or elsewhere), stopping the last player from doing anything useful. So there is a genuine choice in move position on the last turn.

Since the choice of move position depends on having enough money to outbid the other players, you could argue that the current rules allow someone to convert a winning position into a win.

Do try the modifications you suggest. I would be interested to hear the result, However the only rule modifications I really advocate are scoring 1pt for each galley (to prevent sink-everything suicide attacks on the last turn) and 1pt for each fort (because they are just a bit underpowered) at the end of the game.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Simon Lundström
Sweden
Täby
flag msg tools
Now who are these five?
badge
Come, come, all children who love fairy tales.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
You're right about the last turn being an interesting turning point. It's just my sense of order that is a bit disturbed that "all of a sudden, everyone marches to war".
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Paul M
United States
Elkhart
Indiana
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Zimeon wrote:
You're right about the last turn being an interesting turning point. It's just my sense of order that is a bit disturbed that "all of a sudden, everyone marches to war".

I'd never thought of it like this, and this is a good point. But then again I think I have always felt this way, but never put it into words. You're playing the first 7 turns of the game one way, then BOOM on turn 8 the scoring kicks in, scant few boats are delivering goods, and everybody gets bellicose trying to take your ports away that you've controlled for the first 7 turns.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Was George Orwell an Optimist?
United States
Corvallis
Oregon
flag msg tools
The Herbie Nichols Project - Dr. Cyclops' Dream
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
That's the problem that led me to stop playing the game. I'm not sure what the best remedy is, but it certainly needs something.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jeff Ameer
United States
Medina
Ohio
flag msg tools
mbmb
I have played this game numerous times and we have all felt like something should be done to change the scoring. We decided to add a victory point for each ship a player controls at game's end. This took a liitle edge off the total warfare that can result and was a simple solution. What do you all think?
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Male
United Kingdom
Woburn Sands
Beds
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I agree. We always play 1 point per galley at the end. It is just enough to stop people making wild attacks on the last move since the unecessary loss of 2 or 3 galleys could often be enough to lose a game. The game usually depends on ~2 points and one cannot be sure how much money other players have, so you would not take the chance in attacking a port on the last turn without a reasonable chance of success.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Nomadic Gamer
United States
Illinois
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Your joking?? Trying to take your ports is the point-
sailors/militia are CHEAP- if you don't fortify them you deserve to lose.
1500 ducats buys LOTS of troops.
I've lost with banzai attacks so going last is a no big deal.
1500 to go last?? Never seen even 600......
Are you paying yourself? Then you have too much money- use the variant.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
GMOFreePortland.com
United States
Milwaukie
Oregon
flag msg tools
designer
ii desu. It is good.
badge
No, I have no idea.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I just played this for the first time last night. I won by a large margin by attacking and winning several ports on the last turn. I had no incentive to keep my ships and sailors intact. They were of no value if I didn't use them. If I had to factor in the value of my men and investments at the end however, I might have been hesitant to make all those attacks.

I'm thinking the value of all ships, forts and sailors be included in the final point total. One point each for ships and forts. One point for every five sailors. Then you really have to decide if the attack is worth it. A fully loaded medium or capital port might be, since they are worth 5 or 10 points. There is another ten point swing if it is your opponent's capital port. But if it is just a 1 or 2 point port, it might not be worth the time and effort to take.

I think modifications such as these might reduce the bloodshed at the end of the game. It would also be more in the spirit of a trading game, rather than a battle-game. It would also speed up the end quite a bit if you don't have to go through a bunch of battles.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Nomadic Gamer
United States
Illinois
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
'They were of no value if I didn't use them. If I had to factor in the value of my men and investments at the end however,."

They are all worth VPs at the end.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Simon Lundström
Sweden
Täby
flag msg tools
Now who are these five?
badge
Come, come, all children who love fairy tales.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Sadly, no. Ships and sailors aren't worth any VPs at all according to the official rules. That's why everyone launches huge attacks in the last turn, which does feel a bit wrong. And with the turn order, the defending guy is always in an inferiour position; if he controls 5 ports and he realises the attacking guy has 20 sailors to attack with, he'll have to have 20 sailors in each port in order to defend. If one of these ports has 16 or less, it will go down.

I don't dislike this battle system, but I dislike the way the game all of a sudden turns into a weird one-round wargame in the last round. It doesn't make sense.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Paul M
United States
Elkhart
Indiana
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I was going over this old thread and I had an idea...

...how about +100 income for controlling a FULL 2-space port during the income phase, and +200 income for controlling a FULL 4-space port or capital during the income phase?

This accomplishes two things. One, you get a benefit of having owned (and probably filled) the port during the game, even if somebody takes it from you on the last turn. And two, it encourages more conflict during the game for the full ports, as opposed to just waiting until the last turn to start taking them.

Thoughts?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Stephen Meyers
United States
Frederick
Maryland
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
One of the problems we found when we counted sailors as victory points was that the 1st time we played that variant, the players who first realized how much that changed the game, started buying up all the sailors in the late rounds, leaving no sailors for the rest of us.

They would take all their money and buy sailors, that is victory points!

So a little caution is needed, it's like buying Victory without
earning it through trading and filling ports.

I can't recall how much each sailor was worth in victory points, but it was surely unbalance too.


I like the idea of counting points after each round;
how did that work out?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Paul M
United States
Elkhart
Indiana
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I never tried counting points during the game. Something about "bookkeeping" didn't fit with the game for me. So I came up with my new idea.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.