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Subject: playable balanced Ixians v. 2013 rss

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Armin Sudhoff
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When I read through the optional factions from the GENERAL (the Ixians, Landsrad, Tleilaxu) for the first time, I thought *ouch*. All the three factions seemed to be a bit overpowered to me. shake
However the ideas where quite good, so I tried to balance at least one of these factions for a bigger variety or the option to make a 7-player-game one day. The easiest faction to balance, seemed to me to be the Ixians.

---
We changed them now after many games to a completly novelty... so if you want to see the most actual Ixian faction played by our group, read on here:
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/12454431#12454431
---

We tried them now several times and after some changes, they seem to be playable now (what means maybe 10 games (mostly 5 players), they won 2-3)
------------------------------------------------------------

Here come the facts:
begin with: 20 units in reserve, 20 spice.
free revival: 1
Advantages: have high technology
1.) You can power your units in battle: for 2 spice you can double the combat strength of one unit
2.) Gain 10 additional spice in the spice collection phase
3.) May move up to two territories

Disadvantage:
Must move first. In strongholds where you have tokens, two further non-ally factions may land. You have to decide, who you battle first.
(this rule was created, because a Guild-Ixian final ally-victory should be quite for sure, when they both always ship first a token in two occupied strongholds, blocking them with a third faction, that's already there)
Alliance:
Your allies can move up to two territories too, they gain 4 additional Spice during spice collection phase

Karama:
You may use a Karamacard to power up all your tokens in one battle for free.
You may use a Karamacard to double the combat strength of one of your leaders.
Optional Karama:
You may use a Karamacard to move whenever you want, even after the guild.
Leader strengths: like in the original: 3,2,2,1,1

Karama against them:
1.) Steal the half of the Extra-Spice the Ixians (and their allies) gain in the spice-collection-phase.
2.) The Ixians are not allowed to power up their tokens with spice in this battle.

-----------------------

so if you want to try something new, don't hesitate print out the leaders, get some new tokens (or take that of another faction) and play the Ixian Djihad ninja

leaderdiscs can be found here: http://www.sorvan.com/games/dune/LeaderDisks/Disks-Ix.gif
...don't forget the traitors

Greetz, HivedOne

Edit: Have to try, how to rename threads, to be a good PBF-GM here
 
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Patrick S.
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Re: playable balanced Ixians
The changes that you made were the ability to double the power of the troops and the added disadvantage of having multiple enemies in a stronghold, correct?

If you felt that they were overpowered to begin with, it seems to me that they are even stronger now. I like the thematic element of doubling their power, but the disadvantage seems a little tacked on. Do you have a thematic reason why this would be the case? Did you find the Guild/Ixian alliance too powerful?

 
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Randy Brown
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Re: playable balanced Ixians
The 10 extra spice in combination w/ the ability to double troop strength seems overly powerful. Also, you gave them 3 Karama abilities. How does anyone beat them?
 
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Armin Sudhoff
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Re: playable balanced Ixians
Quote:
The changes that you made were the ability to double the power of the troops and the added disadvantage of having multiple enemies in a stronghold, correct?
not really: first of all, the original rules assume that you play with the "spice in combat"-rule (normal tokens count 0.5...). We don't use this rule at all. But if you don't use this rule, the Ixians are crap, as designed. On the one hand they swim in spice, on the other they are lousier then the guild, having worse leader no default victory and always to move first!
I "downgraded" the free revival rate (1 instead of 2), the ally gets "only" four instead of ten spice. The troopstrength was originally doubled by ONE spice (from 0.5 to 1) and with Karama could even become tripled, now it is necessary to pay TWO spice for doubling a token. Considering their leaders (3,2,2,1,1) the doubled troops haven't been overpowered in our games, yet. Of course, if they are armed well, the Ixians are a big threat (who isn't?!), but on the other hand, he often can't afford to battle to much (powering up 5 tokens costs 10 spice, sending them down 5, reviving...)zombie
But you are right, playing without the "spice in combat rule", the original Ixians aren't overpowered, but simply a f***ing worse guild.

Quote:
I like the thematic element of doubling their power, but the disadvantage seems a little tacked on. Do you have a thematic reason why this would be the case? Did you find the Guild/Ixian alliance too powerful?

It actually IS tacked on blush... I have no idea yet, what thematic reason the disadvantage could have, but I either see no thematic reason in the original rules, that say, that only two powers may battle for strongholds (in the book/film ALL factions battled for Arrakeen in the end afaik).
The Guild/Ixians alliance was unbeatable in one of our games, because they always could "block" two strongholds owned by a weaker player/alliance by sending one token down there first, loose the battle and prevent the stronger alliance from winning. So the alliance, they supposed to be a soon winner only could wait for next turn and hope, that the Guild/Ixians decide different.

Quote:
The 10 extra spice in combination w/ the ability to double troop strength seems overly powerful. Also, you gave them 3 Karama abilities. How does anyone beat them?


I originally didn't plan to create three Karamapowers and still count two of them as one:
power up all troops for free or double leader strength might be seen as one power (such as Emperor: revive three tokens or one leader).
The "new Ixians" are "easily" beaten, because they always have to move first. ALL the other players can react on the Ixian-actions. Of course, someone has to swallow the bitter pill and battle him, maybe even two have to do it, but maybe the guild or emperor is willing to pay some spice for the "heroes"
...and always remember: He has to sacrifice more troops/spice then other players, when battling vs. Stilgar, Chani, Feyd, Fenring, Jessica or a BG witch... presumed, he doesn't kill him/her

Hmmm... I still don't see them to be overpowered, but maybe we haven't played them "right"... Maybe it is also because of some of our houserules (e.g. other reviving rules)

...and as already mentioned in the first post: We played them now several times and they seemed to be a "average faction".

Greetz HivedOne
 
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Patrick S.
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Re: playable balanced Ixians
I didn't understand that the Ixians were meant to be played with the "pay for your troops" variant. I can see now what you did with the rules tweaks.

I just got why your Ixians/Guild players were doing. I was having trouble visualizing exactly what was going on. That's pretty clever of them. It doesn't really advance their cause much, but it does prevent other players from winning.

Thanks for clarifying.

What house rules do you play with?
 
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Armin Sudhoff
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Re: playable balanced Ixians
Quote:
I just got why your Ixians/Guild players were doing. I was having trouble visualizing exactly what was going on. That's pretty clever of them. It doesn't really advance their cause much, but it does prevent other players from winning.
Yeah, it's quite hard to imagine, when not having a real "on-board-situation" at hand! ...don't know if they were that clever or if they simply recognised the chance after the Ixian player already blocked stronghold #1 ;-)

To our house rules:
The major difference in "our" gameplay is the revival rate. When we played for the first few times, the guild and emperor always swam in spice and didn't know, what to do with. So we gave to ALL players new chances in spending spice, so that they simply never could have enough spice:
free revivals are played as usual.
for reviving "x" further tokens you have to pay 1+x² spice.
So the Fremen can revive four tokens for 2 spice. HK/AT as usual three tokens: two spice (4t=5s). emperor and guild have to pay for three tokens 5 spice (1 spice more than originally), but can revive four tokens for 10 spice, five tokens for 17 and so on.

Another change is the "spice for dead leader rule". This one was changed by us for several times. First we had a "head-money"-rule, that gave the spice for dead leaders to the killer wether he won the battle or not. The result: many guerilla battles (one token-attacks) just for gaining spice and killing leaders and tokens. Then we changed the rule to "the winner gains spice for the killed enemy". That makes thematically sense (head-money, but not for the own leader) and is a good alternative, that makes defense-cards even more worthy.

minor changes:
We play with the "garrison spice" rule: 2 spice for Arrakeen or Carthag, 1 Spice for Tuek's

In battles always the defender (the one who was first in the territory) wins a tie (more logical: defence structures, makes it minimal easier to defend strongholds)

We allow to cancel a Karamacard played as Karama Power by playing another "real" Karamacard (no BG-worthless). This can be done by any player. This rule was introduced to reduce the 100% winning chance of the Harkonnen-"handswap"

We enhanced the "basic-treachery-deck" by:
1 Karama
1 worthless
1 poison/projectile-weapon/defence of every kind (so now 5 of each)
1 Harvester (you can collect ALL spice in one territory with only one token)
1 truthtrance
1 cheap hero(ine)

The newest house-rule:
To reduce luck a bit, we changed the "traitors-drawing-phase". Now they are drawn one after another. Until the third traitorcard is drawn, each player can return ONCE a traitorcard, he has just drawn for three spice and draw a new one.

still unclear:
How to shatter alliances! We played now several times with two "colored" Shai Hulud-spicecards, that disbanded each alliance made. This was done that an alliance done in turn two doesn't last the whole game, just because the allied already shared all their information (traitors, cards, etc...). This rule made allies more distant to each other and not EVERY secret was shared anymore... but on the other hand, we had one play, where we had only alliances for ONE turn in the whole game... so we still want to change this rule again, maybe not coloring Shai Huluds, but inserting two additional cards, that shatter alliances (what means: 5 chances to create alliances, 2 chances to shatter)

I hope, I didn't forget anything

Holy shoot... a quite long post again, without any smilies... I hope I don't bore you soblue
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Armin Sudhoff
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Re: playable balanced Ixians
Oh, I did forget something
not really a "rule", but a good balancing advice to all dune-players:
We always let the "spice-collecting-factions" sit "far away" from each other, what means, we distribute the player-dots fairly. Noone wants to make his turn right before the Harkonnen... but for the BG, guild or Emperor it is not as dramatically as for the Atreides or Fremen. So the dots are may be distributed as follows: Fremen, Gesserit, Harkonnen, Emperor, Atreides, Guild. With only five players it is sometimes a bit harder to distribute...
If only two "harvesting-factions" are in the game, they sit vis a vis

Hope my English is good enough to understand, what I mean blush

Greetz, HivedOne
 
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Máté Cziner
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Re: playable balanced Ixians
I think (or, at least this is how we play it), at the beginning of a Nexus all alliances are canceled. The same Alliances can be reestablished in the same Nexus, but this is rarely the case.

More often than not, players that were weakened in the recent attempts of the alliance to secure the game, are left out and replaced by a more competent new member.
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Armin Sudhoff
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Re: playable balanced Ixians
Materu wrote:

...More often than not, players that were weakened in the recent attempts of the alliance to secure the game, are left out and replaced by a more competent new member.

Yeah, that's what I missed in our games: that the alliance-players are still single players, that still try the best, to get an advantage ALONE (!)... of course, they shall try to win with the alliance, but in our games it often was simply too safe, that the alliances remained (because noone dared, to "betray" his partner shake ).

Greetz, HivedOne
 
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Armin Sudhoff
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Re: playable balanced Ixians
After many years of play-testing... and many years of DUNE-abstinence yuk ,we have re-designed the Ixians twice.

After several more games, we realised, that the Ixians don't usually use their spice as hoped for pumping tokens, but rather for buying treachery cards. This was a "golden age" for the emperor, as he often got 5 or more spice for cards.

So the first step was, to power-up Ixians in another way, that could not bypass his "destiny" in pumping tokens and doing more useful things.

We created IPS (Ixian power suits). A high-tech "new machine", never seen before, that could be used by their soldiers differently:
1.) Power up tokens as usual
2.) flee before battle to polar sink (1 IPS per token)
3.) One free on-planetshipment per IPS (1 IPS per token)

They could produce more IPS by using spice... and sell their products to their foes for a high price... (foes can't power up troops, just move/flee) to produce even more IPS... allying would increase production and give the ally the option to use IPS in battle, too.

It was a cool faction, that made many games... but selling didn't work that well, so the Ixian became just a "more flexible Trooper" in imminent need of spice. Also the new game-element IPS felt more like a "add-on" that didn't fit always in the game.

However, it felt better, then having these tons of spice and being more am "money-threat" then a "tech-threat".

Yesterday we improved the Ixians once more.

In the next post, I will show you the (hopefully) ultimate Version of the Ixians... be prepared devil
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Armin Sudhoff
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Re: playable balanced Ixians
Ixians v. 2013:

Start with 20 troops in reserve.

Free revival: 4 (due to low leaders: 3,2,2,1,1)

Ixians are highly technologically advanced. Therefore they recieve the following advantages:

1.) "prototype-research": Right before the beginning of the bidding phase, the Ixian may discard one of his cards and draw a new one.
2.) "research-agreement": Once during the bidding phase, immediatly after a card was purchased the Ixian may give one spice to the emperor and one to the highest bidder, to take the according card. The bidder doesn't have to pay for it. (Karama-card-purchase goes first, of course)
3.) "independent of the ancient schools": may ship at half costs. Their shipment can't be accompanied by a coexisting Bene Gesserit token.
4.) "Monopoly on High-Tech" Recieve 1 spice during collection phase.

Karama: May use Karama-cards as a "super-weapon". It cannot be countered by any defense. Used once, you have to discard it after battle.

Alliance:
Can give/recieve/trade treachery cards to/from their ally. This can only be done once per turn at any time before movement phase. The cards given to the ally must be shown to the Atreides player.

"Counter-Karama":
1.) When using a Karama vs. the Ixian, you can either stop him from 1.) "prototype research" AND "research agreement" this turn
2.) When the Ixian announces to trade cards with his ally, you can play a Karama, to prevent that.


To clarify my thoughts and reasons, why giving the new Ixians those powers: I wanted to add a power, that is feared by all other factions, because it is uncalculatable. Of course, the "leaders" are total crap. But that way, the Ixian focusses on high-tech weaponry, that he achieves faster then others by "prototype-research" and stealing high bidden cards. The Atreides has not much clue about his armament. The Bene Gesserit can be surprised by a Karama-weapon, when voicing "Nooo poooison weapon". The guild is betrayed in shipment, the emperor in cards. Not yet clear is, what Harkonnen and Fremen have to fear of. Maybe, that they probably loose their leaders against him and he can always dail high, as he has a good revival (to clarify this: we have a different revival-house-rule: each player can return more tokens per turn, but the costs raise exorbitantly)

Nevertheless: Having crap leaders, having mostly 50:50 chance to face the "wrong" defence (even worse vs. Atreides/Gesserit), he is definitly not overpowered. A single-player-victory seems near to impossible for him, as he is too vulnerable when having anywhere "only" 8 troops... but in an alliance, trading the cards, he is almost worth a Bene Gesserit with more control on his alliance-ability.

Thanks for keeping track of that boring "additional factions"... but what else should I do in my recreation... I am just a geek modest
whistle
Greetz, HivedOne
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Master Jaz
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20 troops in reserve
10 Spice

Leaders 10 6 4 2 2 1

5 Trachery Cards max

The Ixian starts with a stack of 4 trachery-cards(shield, snooper, poison, projectile)
Collecting all the lost weapons in battles, expect of his own losses.

He can sell Weapons to the Bank for 2 Spice, or to any player before the for first player starts his movement.

For his own Hand, he is allowed once per round, at any time, to get a card from the stack or put one card into the stack.

Special Card: Family Atomics, is any weapon for him.
Karama: Use three Tracherycards in Battle eg shield, snooper and a poison

Alliance: One more trachery card is allowed

Emperor-Advantage: No limits in using his stack.

The Ixian is popular by the other players, because he can suply them with missing weapons. He is a welcomed partner for alliances, but a strong opponent in battles.






 
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Armin Sudhoff
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Interesting alternative...
How much revival?

Seem very strong in the beginning (every battle-card - good leaders - similar to Harkonnen) I guess, they are a big threat to both cities due to their armory. However, there are some things to keep in mind: When playing with Harkonnen hand-swap, their advantage can be cut very fast - and thus unbalance the whole game early... no problem for my group, as we play with alternate Harkonnen-Karama. However, due to the other other advantages even an turn-1-handswap won't kick him out of the game.

One thing, I dislike personally:
Everyone knows their armory in the beginning. IMO, they should be a bit more unpredictable (in fact they are, due to having "everything" and you don't know, what they'll play... but after their first loss of weapon and defense, it becomes clearer). I prefer it, when their hand is almost everytime completly unknown.

Quote:
Special Card: Family Atomics, is any weapon for him.

When has he to decide it? After revealing battle plans? That way, the Atomics are much overpowered in his hand. Next to the devastating effect, to kill anybody, this also hinders Atreides prescience and BG voice. Does he have to discard it after use? However, Atreides is also the best ally (prescience).

Quote:
Collecting all the lost weapons in battles, expect of his own losses.
He can sell Weapons to the Bank for 2 Spice, or to any player before the for first player starts his movement.

This must be an overkill (I guess), this will make him richer, then the emperor. He can even sell a used Lasgun "back" to the owner (after getting it back) and also deliver the according shield.
That way also unstoppable with Guild, as they should be able, to block/laz-shield two important strongholds every turn.

Conclusion:
Giving them a good starting position and a big thread from the beginning sounds cool. However all in all, they seem overpowered to me. They'll grab one of the cities and can easily go for spice then (Thopters/Harvesters) noone will risk the losses, they can inflict in every battle. A leader with strength 6 makes it even worse. They can also risk Guerilla tactics (going for other leaders water) and are even worse, when allied with BG or Atreides.

I'd take away or limit 2 or 3 of their advantages and/or downgrade their leaders.

Just a word: Even my less powerful Ixians above were counted as too powerful by some of our players. They were modified several times and are now in a good playing shape... although one player still moans about their advantages
 
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Russ Camp
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Wow.. Armin I have been working on Ix and been play testing our as it is for a good year or so.. We had similar idea.

Heres a Synopsis of what We came up with:

At Start:
20 Tokens in reserves
20 Spice

Free Revival: 1
Revival: 2 for 2 Spice

Spice Stockpiles*:
Gain 10 Spice from bank at end of Collections.
Allies gain 2 Spice from bank at end of Collections.

New and Better Machines:
MUST MOVE FIRST!
All tokens gain a +1 cumulative bonus to maneuvers (yes 4 move with Thopters)
Allies gain the +1 Bonus to movement.

Redundant Command: When a leader is sent to the tanks, you may instead pay twice the amount of spice to the bank to place it in your reserves instead.

Artificially Computed Strategy*:
Can use Karama cards as weapons and Defenses:
Karama Defense will always be treated as the appropriate Defense to block an attack. (Against Lasegun it is treated as neither a shield or a Snooper.)
Karama Attack will always be treated as the Appropriate Attack to avoid a block.
If only a Karama card is played and no other defense or weapon is played it is always treated as a defense card.
The Voice can not force a Karama to be (or not be) used in a battle plan or influence what it is treated as in battle.

May include a Worthless card with the battle as a third (or fourth in case of Cheap Hero/ine) and up to 5 spice. The value of the leader is increased by the number of Spice added to the battle plan. If A Cheap Hero/ine is played in place of a normal leader the value of the Cheap Hero is equal to the number of Spice added to the battle plan

* = This Ability is lost if your main leader (Inquisitor) is in the tanks.

Karama Abilities:

When used against Ix Confederacy, You may play a Karama Card when the Ix player and their allies are about to gain Spice from the Spice Stockpiles. the Spice is left in the Bank and can not be collected this turn.

When used against Ix Confederacy, You may play a Karama Card after battle plans are revealed but before Battle is resolved, to force the Ix player to discard a Karama card or a Worthless card from their battle plan.

Leader Discs:

Inquisitor - 5
Vizier - 4
Bator - 3
Bronso - 2
Levenbrech - 1
Baltern - 1

The underlined paragraphs were changed after very recent play testing.. originally a karama could be played after plans were revealed to double both Number on wheel and Leader.. but found it to be to difficult to ever get in play, and with leaders being weak in combat pretty much required a Stoneburner.

We also designed them as a balancing player for Bene Gesserit.. to give them someone that wouldnt be entirely at the mercy of the voice. and recently someone to compete for worthless cards.

As far as Allies I found that in testing early game they tend to ally with either Bene Tleilaxu (my house rules for them allow giving of Treachery cards at anytime during the Bidding Phase.) Or the Atreides. Until they build a combat hand which for them is 4 to 2 cards depending on the shuffle. Every Worm they are getting asked to join alliances as their Alliance abilities are very good. (Last Game had a Harkonnen/Ix Alliance on a turn 2 Worm. This just After the Ix took Arrakeen (no Atreides player) turn 1, having 2 players with 4 movement. This then forced the hand of the Bene Tleilaxu/Emperor Alliance to use Family Atomics on turn 3 as the Storm was waiting to move 3 directly across Arrakeen and Carthag.)

I really Like your Ix and will be adding it to my set with a new shield and play around with it.. if the players like it we may just go with it.. It looks well done. I will say That I like your "Super Weapon" very similar to the idea I had.. but much less wordy .. I may steal it.ninja

I Do however disagree with the Half price shipping... Regardless of them not having connections to the ancient schools if anything they would pay MORE for not having connections to the Spacing Guild. I mean the Guild OWN space travel. without them you can't get to Arrakis. I do see why from a game sense did it. Its simpler to make something cheaper for them and reduce their Spice wealth than to balance their spice income to fit.
I do also agree with the Bene Gesserit not getting Combat Advisors when you ship. not just to hate on the BG but I think it fits the Flavor of the theme.

I also like how you kept with the unique aspect of the player abilities. They don't feel like they are something that is just a hodgepodge of the other players abilities. Unique ideas.

 
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Master Jaz
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Ixian clearification:

Starts with one Card in his hand.

Stack/Hand

The stack is not his hand, he is not allowed to play/use cards from his stack in battle. He can only sell them or take one per round to his hand.

He is good for faster start for everyone, because 3 to 4 extra weapons poosible in first round.

Ixian is getting stronger in later game, espacially when Lasegun gets lost by anyone else



Family Atomics:
I can be any weapon, but not change/choose after battleplans roll out.
When battle plans ready, no more changes püossible, the ixians says wich weapen it is.
We had wooden battlewheels coatet with foil, and little icons for all weapons and defenses and third-battle-cards. So he can mark it with whiteboard marker.

The little icons were established for rookies, as "battle-help", later i coated them.

We also play the Tleilax with the possibility tu use defenses as weapons and otherwise.


As Ixian you have to decide:

Supply your enemies or go for spice.
The most beginners don't distribute cards, but you can earn a lot of spice if you make good deals. Try to supply both sides and be aware of not being caught in the middle.

Selling the tleilax a lasegun and shields to all others and wait for an explosion...

Afterwards you can take over the survivor, if any.



 
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Armin Sudhoff
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Servius1983 wrote:
Wow.. Armin I have been working on Ix and been play testing our as it is for a good year or so.. We had similar idea.
...

Great, to see others going for an alternative Ixian. This one reminds me on our first version of the Ixians.
What we found out:
Be careful with: MUST MOVE FIRST!
This can be game-breaking together with the guild moving also before others:
They can block two strongholds that way, to make clear, a possible winner has no chance to go for victory at all... very annoying but effective.
Also we realised, that adding too much spice from "outside" may unbalance the complete economy (seems you had experienced something similar?). Ixian will almost always pay high for treachery cards, what makes the emperor even richer as usual and making other poor factions get even less cards. The fact, that spice can be used for anything means, giving someone a big amount, can lead to using it for other purpose, then supposed. (we added it primarily for battle purposes). I like the idea of getting +1 on all moves, we had them once just like the Fremen 2 tiles-movement... that was a "stolen" ability that you mentioned to dislike in the end of your post.
I like the redundant command... a little gimmick, however useful and thematic.

Artificially Computed Strategy seems really similar to our "superweapon". As we have original leaders (3,2,2,1,1), a "super-defense" doesn't add much for them.

What is most new to me is the optional worthless. I think, they sometimes can rely completly on this worthless, if having the right defense (ally with Atreides very useful... BG as competitor for worthless rather not?)

Quote:
I will say That I like your "Super Weapon" very similar to the idea I had.. but much less wordy .. I may steal it.ninja

Go for it! It is posted for sharing!!

Quote:
I Do however disagree with the Half price shipping... Regardless of them not having connections to the ancient schools if anything they would pay MORE for not having connections to the Spacing Guild. I mean the Guild OWN space travel. without them you can't get to Arrakis. I do see why from a game sense did it. Its simpler to make something cheaper for them and reduce their Spice wealth than to balance their spice income to fit.

That's it: too much spice from "nowhere" unbalances too much... however, you are right. It is non-thematically... at least formulated that way. Maybe it would be better, to describe the same effect in a different way:
Have the ability to compress space. For every token, they send to Arrakis, they can send an additional token into the same territory for free (that's pay half cost rounded up).
 
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Armin Sudhoff
Germany
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master jaz wrote:
Ixian clearification:

Starts with one Card in his hand.

Stack/Hand

The stack is not his hand, he is not allowed to play/use cards from his stack in battle. He can only sell them or take one per round to his hand.

Okay, now I got it... almost... some new details are needed then:
1.) cards that are from the discard pile are put into his stack or hand?
2.) Is the stack a randomized card-pile or can he choose?


master jaz wrote:
Ixian is getting stronger in later game, espacially when Lasegun gets lost by anyone else

Yeah, I can imagine, that they become awful rich then... but also must consider strategically, to whom distribute cards... and again: Stack or hand? Stack visible for him/anyone?

master jaz wrote:
Family Atomics:
I can be any weapon, but not change/choose after battleplans roll out.
When battle plans ready, no more changes püossible, the ixians says wich weapen it is.

Okay, that way it is much more balanced. If he knows others defense, it can be very strong, but if not, it is just a weapon. However, when not having prepared battle-wheels like you, it is not always that easy to handle.

master jaz wrote:
As Ixian you have to decide:

Supply your enemies or go for spice.
The most beginners don't distribute cards, but you can earn a lot of spice if you make good deals. Try to supply both sides and be aware of not being caught in the middle.

Selling the tleilax a lasegun and shields to all others and wait for an explosion...

Afterwards you can take over the survivor, if any.

Sounds like you really have to think strategically: Sell weapons or use them yourself... as soon as you have an ally, this question might become obsolete, then it is the question how to concentrate your powers together.

However, I still haven't got, how to sell cards/get cards back from the discard-pile... and if the stack can be searched through by the Ixian... also: sell from stack or from hand?

Another question: The regular treachery-card-stack has then one weapon and defense of each type less, right?

Reading once more through your first post... and combining with your second, I suppose, they have this stack and can once per turn sell one card from the stack AND take or put back one card to/from hand.

Seeing this, I suppose, that their might be phases in game, where the Ixian stack is filled with cards, the Ixian cannot distribute "fast enough". When playing them right, the reshuffled card-pile will only contain 1-2 battle cards from Ixian hand. Poor emperor... he will get much less money that way, as the good cards don't come from his stack in the long term.

When assuming all right, I don't see a reason why the Ixian needs a bigger hand limit, then other players.

I little pain in the a** is that the Ixian might "collect" all the defenses or weapons in his stack and making others very vulnerable... and thus becoming very powerful again... but you had hopefully much playtesting??
 
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Master Jaz
Germany
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We have 2 discard piles:

one as usualand another one for the waepons and defenses lost by all other players, this pile we called stack.

Only two ways for weapons and defenses goes to the regular discard plie:
The Ixian loose cards or sell cards to the bank.
(Or he was forced by karama to reduce his stack, only allowed to keep one of each - but this happens not often)


The Ixians can look into his stack, (the mentat can do it also) but nobody else, unless the ixian allow it to you.
He can choose one card he need for his own hand.

You can order in many way:
I need a poison, or i need a defense.
Or i need one card, but nobody should know wich one.
So the ixian give you a set of 4, you choose one and give the rest back to him.

He use a set of 2 x Basecards + 5 from Harvester + 45 from Duel,
so we have each weapon and defense 9 times.
If he try to filter a special card like snooper, hi can forced by karama to sell all except one of each to the bank. Only rookies try this.

Family Atomics:
Also playable as defense.
(In German we have Weaponcards, this includes Attack- and Defense-Cards, i think this remains from the first translation in the early 80s)
Its very good for him, but not so bad for the other, you expect the ixian to have access to every weapon and defense.

The Ixians was not so rich like tleilax or guild.

The fifth card is very nice for him.
When we introduced him, we had long discussions, 4 or 5.
The 4-faction get one smaler every time a new player tested the ixian.
Finaly we decide unanimously 5 cards.

look here
Emperor Rules

it started all with 3 Strongholds...we dont wont to stop the game...
so we kick of the emperor, and everyone can become emperor, getting money from bidding, sardaukar and a personal advantage...

The Ixian Emperor-Advantage is unlimited access to his stack.












 
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Russ Camp
United States
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HivedOne wrote:

Be careful with: MUST MOVE FIRST!
This can be game-breaking together with the guild moving also before others:
They can block two strongholds that way, to make clear, a possible winner has no chance to go for victory at all... very annoying but effective.

We sort of saw that in the last game. With no Atreides player Arrakeen was open for business.. the normal turn order should have allowed the Bene Gesserit (or Guild) to jump in. But the Ix ran in quickly. Additionally, I can easily see what you are saying as well.. It is supposed to be a negative but I think that more often than not it will be a boon.
HivedOne wrote:

Also we realised, that adding too much spice from "outside" may unbalance the complete economy (seems you had experienced something similar?). Ixian will almost always pay high for treachery cards, what makes the emperor even richer as usual and making other poor factions get even less cards. The fact, that spice can be used for anything means, giving someone a big amount, can lead to using it for other purpose, then supposed. (we added it primarily for battle purposes).

Yeah, we haven't really ran into too many problems as yet with their spice wealth.. But I have had this worry and am keeping it on my mind.
HivedOne wrote:

I like the idea of getting +1 on all moves, we had them once just like the Fremen 2 tiles-movement... that was a "stolen" ability that you mentioned to dislike in the end of your post.

Dislike may have been too strong... I should have said I try to avoid. We have found that its a good general rule and while useful for them it makes them a target for Alliance in the Nexus round.
HivedOne wrote:

I like the redundant command... a little gimmick, however useful and thematic.

This is 2 fold. One being that the Leaders are cheap and small its almost always a given to buy them back, especially when you know you get 10 spice at the end of the Collection Round. Two, it will deprive the Bene Tleilaxu player valuable Spice. Additionally, when I read the General Rules it listed them as being simply Officers.. Lieutenant, Major, Captain, etc.. Which got me thinking that they would probably just let them die and bring in a new officer to take their place. And when I was thinking of them I was trying to find reasons for the Ix to spend the spice they got from Stockpiles so they didn't just horde it.
HivedOne wrote:

Artificially Computed Strategy seems really similar to our "superweapon". As we have original leaders (3,2,2,1,1), a "super-defense" doesn't add much for them.

What is most new to me is the optional worthless. I think, they sometimes can rely completly on this worthless, if having the right defense (ally with Atreides very useful... BG as competitor for worthless rather not?)

With Both parts of it. It can be very nice. We wanted to give Ix the ability to build a Hand Quickly and relay their advanced tech. That said they can get the PERFECT combat hand with as little as 3 cards (Karama, Karama, Worthless) but they realistically would be more likely for a Karama, Worthless, Weapon-Poison, Weapon-Projectile. An early alliance with the Atreides or the Bene Tleilaxu could effectively set them up for the later turns. (Our BT rules are pretty much the same as the General.)
HivedOne wrote:

That's it: too much spice from "nowhere" unbalances too much... however, you are right. It is non-thematically... at least formulated that way. Maybe it would be better, to describe the same effect in a different way:
Have the ability to compress space. For every token, they send to Arrakis, they can send an additional token into the same territory for free (that's pay half cost rounded up).

Well... If you take Brian Herbert seriously... Ix manufacture the Heighliners for the Guild, I believe that is in "Prelude to Dune".... so it could be very easily explained in a Separate rule called (Builders of Ships or Guild Contracts.)

I will say again I'm surprised that we were so close in the idea of Karama being a "Superweapon" I thought I was being completely new & innovative on that one. But I will say in Practice when it does come up its a very powerful ability but on the scale of other Karama powers... Its no Harkonnen.

I play generally with the Main Leaders... And have been considering raising the Inquisitor Value to 6 and if so, debating whether or not to lower the amount of Spice that can be added with the worthless card in A.C.S. to 4.
 
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