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Subject: Turn order auction alternative rss

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Darrell Hanning
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Yes.

Use the auction system found in Age of Steam.
 
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Waffles? Arooo!
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The variant we play now is that the people who end up with the two highest bids both pay the full amount, and go 1st and 2nd. The people that goes 3rd and 4th pays half their bid rounded down, and the person who goes last pays nothing (we typically play 5 player games).

Example:
A bid 2
B bids 3
C passes, goes last, pays nothing
D bids 4
E passes, goes 4th, pays half his bid, which is 0
A passes, goes 3rd, pays half his bid, which is 1
B passes, goes 2nd, pays 3
D wins the auction, goes 1st, pays 4

If there's 4 players, last pays nothing, 3rd pays half rounded down, 1st and 2nd pay full amount
 
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Darrell Hanning
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Luthrin wrote:
The variant we play now is that the people who end up with the two highest bids both pay the full amount, and go 1st and 2nd. The people that goes 3rd and 4th pays half their bid rounded down, and the person who goes last pays nothing (we typically play 5 player games).

Example:
A bid 2
B bids 3
C passes, goes last, pays nothing
D bids 4
E passes, goes 4th, pays half his bid, which is 0
A passes, goes 3rd, pays half his bid, which is 1
B passes, goes 2nd, pays 3
D wins the auction, goes 1st, pays 4

If there's 4 players, last pays nothing, 3rd pays half rounded down, 1st and 2nd pay full amount


That's essentially the system found in AoS.
 
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Fair enough. I've never actually played AoS, someone else in our group has, he was the one that suggested it. I guess that's where he got it from
 
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Harald Torvatn
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ideogram wrote:
Uh yes, I know about the AoS system. Does anyone actually have any thoughts on the system I proposed?


The system you propose seems fine, and is the system I would use if I thought the system in the game was not adequat.

It is much better than the system used in Age of Steam. (The systeme used in age of steam makes the first player and the second player pay almost the same amount, which in most cases either makes the first place to cheap or the second place to expensive (or both). Especially in Railroad tycoon, in which it usually is a huge difference between going first or second, this system will be very unfair.)
 
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Kevin Peters Unrau
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ideogram wrote:
Strictly for game balance probably the best thing to do would be to auction off every place in the turn order. You would have n-1 auctions for n players every turn. This seems like a lot of auctions but if what people say is true then most of the time all the auctions except the first would be trivial. Obviously as soon as there is an auction where everyone passes there is no need for more auctions to resolve the rest of the turn order.

I haven't actually played enough RT to start messing with the rules, but eventually I would like to try this. Thoughts?


Or you can auction all spots simultaneously as Sonja mentions above. The bidding chart and rules we use is here:

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/file/info/30903

It plays quickly in our group and deals with three issues:

1. Sometimes going second is worth almost as much as going first.
2. Sometimes going second is worth no more than going last.
3. Sometimes it's worth paying to go before one other specific player with whom you are in direct competition, regardless of their position in the turn order.
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Randy Brown
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This issue has been discussed many times here on the geek. I just want to say:

1) Going 2nd is no better than going last
2) You usually only compete with 1 other person, best if he's not sitting to your left
3) Since there's only 1 card flipped over, there's only 1 thing to fight over
4) AoS is broken
5) I rule

These axioms have been proven and re-proven. Deal with it.

Ok, kidding aside, the above axioms are true in some circumstances (except #4 when I win). As you said, in the first turn (I'd say the first 3 turns), there is a marked difference between 2nd and last. However, for the majority of the game, there is only 1 thing (rarely a card mind you) worth bidding for in a turn.

The problem with your variant is that it adds a lot of time to the game (see Conquest of the Empire). As the problems tend to evaporate by mid game, you've added a lot of time for a minimal payoff.

So the AoS variant enters the ring. This works better in that it adds only a bit more time. However, RrT is not AoS. They have different enough economies. I foresee two scenarios:

1) You have an active bidding round each turn--lots of extra $ is sucked out of the game leading to a longer game or a lower scoring game.

2) Most people pass each round except the guy who threw out a $1--works pretty much the same as RrT does in the later turns.

At the end of the day, I don't think you've done much good.

Understanding how the turn order works in RrT is important. Part of the game, as written, is in manipulating this. If it's not a part of the game you relish, then try a compromise like this:

1st player to pass goes last, 2nd player to pass in penultimate position, etc on down to the winning player who pays his bid. This incentivizes players who sit to the left of an aggressive bidder to do something other than pass; it will shake up the turn order in an all pass turn; and it adds no additional game time to the bidding (but will probably add time in reminding players to take their turns as in any variable turn order game).
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Patrick S.
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Maybe you can try a more complicated bidding just for the first round and then go back to the regular method for later rounds when it's not as important.

In our games, after the first turn, everyone pretty much passes except on player. On occasion two will bid for it, but there isn't much reason to waste the money.

On a strategy note, it's not smart to get into a contest with the person to your right. They will have to play first anyway, so you have the ability to not deal with them. Go mess with the player to your left instead.
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tim
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discoking7 wrote:

1st player to pass goes last, 2nd player to pass in penultimate position, etc on down to the winning player who pays his bid. This incentivizes players who sit to the left of an aggressive bidder to do something other than pass; it will shake up the turn order in an all pass turn; and it adds no additional game time to the bidding (but will probably add time in reminding players to take their turns as in any variable turn order game).
This has been the best proposal I've seen so far.
 
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Paul Sauberer
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Have the last player to drop out decide whether turn order goes clockwise or counterclockwise from the start player. That prevents someone from doing nothing and benefiting from an aggressive player sitting to their right.
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tim
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Sonja wrote:
What about removing auctions and having the start player rotate by moving an object to mark start player clockwise by one player at the start of every new round?
That adds a lot of randomness and a lot of money back into the game. If people weren't bidding on auctions I think there would be a run away leader problem.
 
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Jonathan Franklin
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Discoking's suggestion could be made easier to remember during play if you have discs numbered 1-6. When you drop out, you just take the highest numbered disc available. Return the disc when you take your turn, or at the end of the round.

If you want to add a twist, put a buck on the highest number to encourage dropping, thereby perhaps shortening the auction phase.
 
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Jon G
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Sonja wrote:
What about removing auctions and having the start player rotate by moving an object to mark start player clockwise by one player at the start of every new round?


Seems to me that the problem with this is that the cards & map are (intentionally) not balanced against each other, and the designers balanced this out (quite well, I think) with bidding. As others have noted, this can be a problem in the first round, when there are usually more than one good position/card, but not enough for everyone.

I've never wanted to fix the bidding, but I'd probably do a more complex auction (of any kind, doesn't really matter) in the first round, then revert to standard rules afterwards.
 
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Randy Brown
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I wish that I could take credit for the above suggestion, but it actually came from mark.gamer in the last thread about the auction:

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/2202107#2202107

His full post, which is better than my summation:

mark.gamer wrote:
I have played several games of both RRT and ROE with this version and I find it works very well, and in fact now perfer it to the standard "around the table" sequence.

Quote:
The first player from the previous turn begins the auction for the "1st player" for this turn. Bidding continues based on the previous turn's turn order (1st to 5th). Players may either outbid (place a higher bid then the last bid) or pass. If a player chooses to pass then they can not re-enter the bidding and move their turn order locomotive to the end of the line (for the first one to pass), or to the next spot in front of those who have already passed.

Bidding continues based on the previous turns, turn order (example: 1, 2, 3, 4, 1, 2, 3, 4 ... for 4 players) until all players have passed (no dollar amount was ever bid) or only one player who has bid a dollar amount is left. If a dollar amount was bid then that is paid to the bank and that player moves their locomotive to position 1. Shares may be issued to pay for this.


To which I replied:

discoking7 wrote:
In other words, this is a sort of hybridization of RrT and AoS rules. I like it in that it only requires the top bidder to pay, so the auction is not sucking a lot of money out of the game. It's pretty simple to implement unlike bidding for each slot with separate bidding rounds. It rewards players who are willing to risk any bid at all while punishing timid bidders. If your group isn't that into bidding, then the turn order will still shake up (i.e. if everyone passes, then the turn order is reversed). Yes, this would work out quite well.
 
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Randy Brown
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If you apply both of those rules, it could get pretty confusing. I like the 2nd rule (B) on it's own though.
 
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Kim Milvang-Jensen
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We always play the following variation.

in turn 1 we have bids for first, then once that is setteled, we have bids for 2nd, than after thatw e have bids for 3rd. The process continues until a place goes pass all around, and then the rest of the places are disributed randomly.

The remaining turns of the game we have standart RRT bidding.

We found that anything other than going standart, does slow down the game, so after trying using our 1st turn rules all game, we decided that it was only needed in turn 1. Ocationally 2nd would get bid on, but it was not enough to warrent the extra complexity.

I dont think knowing who you will go after is a bad thing. You can use this information to make initial placement, and dont star close to the player on your right.

In additing we alwas draws seats at random.
 
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John Downing
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We use the Evo / Vegas Showdown method described above,
but the player who is last in turn order bids first.

This means that if nobody bids, the turn order reverses.
Our group loves this method.

John Philip
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Jon Pessano
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discoking7 wrote:
I wish that I could take credit for the above suggestion, but it actually came from mark.gamer in the last thread about the auction:

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/2202107#2202107

His full post, which is better than my summation:

mark.gamer wrote:
I have played several games of both RRT and ROE with this version and I find it works very well, and in fact now perfer it to the standard "around the table" sequence.

Quote:
The first player from the previous turn begins the auction for the "1st player" for this turn. Bidding continues based on the previous turn's turn order (1st to 5th). Players may either outbid (place a higher bid then the last bid) or pass. If a player chooses to pass then they can not re-enter the bidding and move their turn order locomotive to the end of the line (for the first one to pass), or to the next spot in front of those who have already passed.

Bidding continues based on the previous turns, turn order (example: 1, 2, 3, 4, 1, 2, 3, 4 ... for 4 players) until all players have passed (no dollar amount was ever bid) or only one player who has bid a dollar amount is left. If a dollar amount was bid then that is paid to the bank and that player moves their locomotive to position 1. Shares may be issued to pay for this.


To which I replied:

discoking7 wrote:
In other words, this is a sort of hybridization of RrT and AoS rules. I like it in that it only requires the top bidder to pay, so the auction is not sucking a lot of money out of the game. It's pretty simple to implement unlike bidding for each slot with separate bidding rounds. It rewards players who are willing to risk any bid at all while punishing timid bidders. If your group isn't that into bidding, then the turn order will still shake up (i.e. if everyone passes, then the turn order is reversed). Yes, this would work out quite well.


So, if I understand this, only the winner pays, correct? For a 3 player game, is this how it works
Player 1 bids 1
Player 2 bids 2
Player 3 bids 3
Player 1 passes (doesn't pay and goes last)
Player 2 passes (doesn't pay and goes second).
Player 3 pays 3 and goes first?

Thx
jonpfl
 
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Jimmy Hensel
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jonpfl wrote:
discoking7 wrote:
I wish that I could take credit for the above suggestion, but it actually came from mark.gamer in the last thread about the auction:

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/2202107#2202107

His full post, which is better than my summation:

mark.gamer wrote:
I have played several games of both RRT and ROE with this version and I find it works very well, and in fact now perfer it to the standard "around the table" sequence.

Quote:
The first player from the previous turn begins the auction for the "1st player" for this turn. Bidding continues based on the previous turn's turn order (1st to 5th). Players may either outbid (place a higher bid then the last bid) or pass. If a player chooses to pass then they can not re-enter the bidding and move their turn order locomotive to the end of the line (for the first one to pass), or to the next spot in front of those who have already passed.

Bidding continues based on the previous turns, turn order (example: 1, 2, 3, 4, 1, 2, 3, 4 ... for 4 players) until all players have passed (no dollar amount was ever bid) or only one player who has bid a dollar amount is left. If a dollar amount was bid then that is paid to the bank and that player moves their locomotive to position 1. Shares may be issued to pay for this.


To which I replied:

discoking7 wrote:
In other words, this is a sort of hybridization of RrT and AoS rules. I like it in that it only requires the top bidder to pay, so the auction is not sucking a lot of money out of the game. It's pretty simple to implement unlike bidding for each slot with separate bidding rounds. It rewards players who are willing to risk any bid at all while punishing timid bidders. If your group isn't that into bidding, then the turn order will still shake up (i.e. if everyone passes, then the turn order is reversed). Yes, this would work out quite well.


So, if I understand this, only the winner pays, correct? For a 3 player game, is this how it works
Player 1 bids 1
Player 2 bids 2
Player 3 bids 3
Player 1 passes (doesn't pay and goes last)
Player 2 passes (doesn't pay and goes second).
Player 3 pays 3 and goes first?

Thx
jonpfl


That is correct.
 
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Jon Pessano
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pawnpusher wrote:
jonpfl wrote:
discoking7 wrote:
I wish that I could take credit for the above suggestion, but it actually came from mark.gamer in the last thread about the auction:

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/2202107#2202107

His full post, which is better than my summation:

mark.gamer wrote:
I have played several games of both RRT and ROE with this version and I find it works very well, and in fact now perfer it to the standard "around the table" sequence.

Quote:
The first player from the previous turn begins the auction for the "1st player" for this turn. Bidding continues based on the previous turn's turn order (1st to 5th). Players may either outbid (place a higher bid then the last bid) or pass. If a player chooses to pass then they can not re-enter the bidding and move their turn order locomotive to the end of the line (for the first one to pass), or to the next spot in front of those who have already passed.

Bidding continues based on the previous turns, turn order (example: 1, 2, 3, 4, 1, 2, 3, 4 ... for 4 players) until all players have passed (no dollar amount was ever bid) or only one player who has bid a dollar amount is left. If a dollar amount was bid then that is paid to the bank and that player moves their locomotive to position 1. Shares may be issued to pay for this.


To which I replied:

discoking7 wrote:
In other words, this is a sort of hybridization of RrT and AoS rules. I like it in that it only requires the top bidder to pay, so the auction is not sucking a lot of money out of the game. It's pretty simple to implement unlike bidding for each slot with separate bidding rounds. It rewards players who are willing to risk any bid at all while punishing timid bidders. If your group isn't that into bidding, then the turn order will still shake up (i.e. if everyone passes, then the turn order is reversed). Yes, this would work out quite well.


So, if I understand this, only the winner pays, correct? For a 3 player game, is this how it works
Player 1 bids 1
Player 2 bids 2
Player 3 bids 3
Player 1 passes (doesn't pay and goes last)
Player 2 passes (doesn't pay and goes second).
Player 3 pays 3 and goes first?

Thx
jonpfl


That is correct.


I am curious, doesn't that somewhat punish the last player since surely the first player (and the ones that follow) will always bid?

I haven't tried it yet so maybe you can alleviate my concerns? Has this not been the case when you have used this system? I am looking for a clean auction system to use that won't benefit a person sitting to the left of a high bidder.

Thx
jonpfl
 
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Jimmy Hensel
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discoking7 wrote:
I wish that I could take credit for the above suggestion, but it actually came from mark.gamer in the last thread about the auction:

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/2202107#2202107

His full post, which is better than my summation:

mark.gamer wrote:
I have played several games of both RRT and ROE with this version and I find it works very well, and in fact now perfer it to the standard "around the table" sequence.

Quote:
The first player from the previous turn begins the auction for the "1st player" for this turn. Bidding continues based on the previous turn's turn order (1st to 5th). Players may either outbid (place a higher bid then the last bid) or pass. If a player chooses to pass then they can not re-enter the bidding and move their turn order locomotive to the end of the line (for the first one to pass), or to the next spot in front of those who have already passed.

Bidding continues based on the previous turns, turn order (example: 1, 2, 3, 4, 1, 2, 3, 4 ... for 4 players) until all players have passed (no dollar amount was ever bid) or only one player who has bid a dollar amount is left. If a dollar amount was bid then that is paid to the bank and that player moves their locomotive to position 1. Shares may be issued to pay for this.


To which I replied:

discoking7 wrote:
In other words, this is a sort of hybridization of RrT and AoS rules. I like it in that it only requires the top bidder to pay, so the auction is not sucking a lot of money out of the game. It's pretty simple to implement unlike bidding for each slot with separate bidding rounds. It rewards players who are willing to risk any bid at all while punishing timid bidders. If your group isn't that into bidding, then the turn order will still shake up (i.e. if everyone passes, then the turn order is reversed). Yes, this would work out quite well.


I've played with this and liked it fairly well, but there are a couple of things about it which I don't like. One it tends to encourage bidding by most players since the first to pass will be last in turn order. The other is the cost of going second or third is no more than going last other than the greater risk of having to pay to go first. Sometimes going second or third can be much more valuable than third or fourth.

I've further hybridized the auction closer to AoS:
The first player of the just ended turn starts the bidding. Bidding progresses in turn order of the just ended turn. Each player must either raise the bid or pass. Once a player passes, that player may not re-enter the auction. The first player to pass becomes last in turn order for free. Each subsequent player to pass pays the bank the highest bid made by a player who has already passed and assumes the next closer to first position in turn order than the one who most recently passed. The player making the highest bid, pays it to the bank and becomes first in turn order.

For example: Green was first player, and he starts the bidding at $1,000. Red was second, and he bids $2,000. Blue was third, and he passes and pays nothing. Yellow was fourth, and he bids $3,000. Black was fifth, and he bids $4,000. Green bids $5,000. Red passes and pays nothing. Yellow bids $6,000. Black passes and pays the bank $2,000. Green bids $7,000. Yellow passes and pays the bank $4,000. Everyone but Green has passed. Green pays the bank $7,000. Player order is now: Green, Yellow, Black, Red and Blue.

This encourages those who don't want to pay for a turn order position to pass at their first opportunity, and it allows for one "chaser" to bid up the more valuable places in turn order at a low cost.
 
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Jimmy Hensel
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Jon,

In my plays of the mark.gamer suggested auction, bidding felt like a game of "chicken." The first person to pass is penalized by having to accept being last in turn order. The player who risks having to pay to go first while bidding up the cost of going first but passes last is rewarded with playing second. In 5 and 6 player games on turns I don't want to pay to go first, I like to stay in the bidding until a couple of players pass so I'm not stuck with last or next to last. Being left of an aggressive bidder didn't seem to provide an advantage like in the standard RrT or RotW auctions.
 
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Jon Pessano
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All,

I am curious, does it make more sense to make the person pay what their last bid was when they pass (obviously an immediate pass is free)?

This might force the first (and second player) from bidding initially for fear of going last AND paying money.

Thoughts?

Thx
jonpfl
 
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jonpfl wrote:
All,

I am curious, does it make more sense to make the person pay what their last bid was when they pass (obviously an immediate pass is free)?

This might force the first (and second player) from bidding initially for fear of going last AND paying money.

Thoughts?

Thx
jonpfl


Throughout the game there will be several turns where going first is much more valuable than going second. Making players pay their last bid when they pass encourages players to let someone take first player too cheaply. You really need a bidding mechanism that allows at least one player to raise to cost of going earlier in the turn order at little or no cost to himself.
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pawnpusher wrote:
jonpfl wrote:
All,

I am curious, does it make more sense to make the person pay what their last bid was when they pass (obviously an immediate pass is free)?

This might force the first (and second player) from bidding initially for fear of going last AND paying money.

Thoughts?

Thx
jonpfl


Throughout the game there will be several turns where going first is much more valuable than going second. Making players pay their last bid when they pass encourages players to let someone take first player too cheaply. You really need a bidding mechanism that allows at least one player to raise to cost of going earlier in the turn order at little or no cost to himself.


How about making anyone pass pay half their bid (rounded up) or do you still think it might not work?

Mind you, I have never played this game as I just bought it but played AoS extensively ages ago.

Thx
jonpfl
 
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