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Subject: Language dependence rss

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Daniel Karp
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100 geekgold for OverText, and all I got was this stupid sentence.
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I'd like to add a simple poll for degree of language dependence to game pages. HOw should the poll read, and what should the options be? Let me stress, SIMPLE. I don't want a zillion options here.

Possibilities:
How much language-dependent content is there in this game?
None.
A little.
Some--consider paste-ups.
A lot--extensive paste-ups needed to play.

Rate the language dependence of this game:
high
(medium?)
low
language independent

Other suggestions?

Things to consider--some games have a lot of language dependent content that is irrelevant to gameplay. Wildlife Adventure falls into this category. I only want one poll with only a few options, so I want to word this carefully to make the results as useful as possible.


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Richard Pardoe
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dakarp wrote:
How much language-dependent content is there in this game?
None.
A little.
Some--consider paste-ups.
A lot--extensive paste-ups needed to play.


I like this option as it helps anchor an otherwise arbitrary scale (hi, med, low). But I also think the opening question should be rephrased a bit....

The language content in this game is....

* Non-existent (icons used)
* Some language, but can be ignored (atmosphere only)
* Basic words (easily translated w/ a reference sheet)
* Some sentences - paste-ups would help
* Detailed paragraphs - paste-ups or excessive reference required



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oskari
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Grinwold has already done a lot of work with this, so you might want to take his "Language Level" tags into consideration as well.

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/15467
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John Roach
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Why re-invent the wheel? Grimwold (and others) have done a lot of work on this. The definitions are clear and by using the tag facility to record the judgement they are easy to find.
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Simon Lundström
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My vote goes for Grimwold's too. For those who don't want to check his GeekList out, here's the levels:

0 - no language dependence at all (Chess, Go, Carcassonne, Tikal, Ticket to Ride)
1 - sparse text that is very easily memorized (Settlers)
2 - some cards and stuff but you can do with a little sheet of paper with translations (Cities & Knights of Catan)
3 - Lots of text. To play this, you need paste-ups, using a translation beside is simply not possible. (Talisman, Arkham Horror)
4 - Mechanically unplayable/knowledgeable unplayable in another language (Scrabble, trivia games)

In my opinion this is the best way to classify them. I agree that opinions might differ (Agricola family game, is that a 1 or a 2? Agricola full game, it it a 2 or a 3?) but I think the definitions are easy enough and it covers all you need to know.
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Andy
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Daniel, have I told you recently I love you?

Regarding the poll descriptions (which need to be more descriptive than simply levels I think)

No necessary in-game language
Some necessary language - small crib sheet required
Moderate in-game language - extensive crib sheet or paste ups
Extensive use of language - too much for paste ups or crib sheets
Don't try this at home! - Unplayable
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Daniel Karp
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OK, for the poll I would really prefer short (few words) definitions without keys. I'm happy to use Grimwold's system, but I don't want use the numbers--just a text key.

Language content of this game:
No text
sparse text
Lots of text
Unplayable in another language

Anyone want to improve that? It can have a bit more wording, but it shouldn't be too much more.


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Andy
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Great descriptions Dan.

A little clarification might be useful on whether the text is necessary... some games with text are playable as no-text games because of having icons as well.
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Russ Williams
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dakarp wrote:
OK, for the poll I would really prefer short (few words) definitions without keys. I'm happy to use Grimwold's system, but I don't want use the numbers--just a text key.

Language content of this game:
No text
sparse text
Lots of text
Unplayable in another language

Anyone want to improve that? It can have a bit more wording, but it shouldn't be too much more.

You seem to have left out a middle level since your proposal has 4 and Grimwold's has 5, as I understand it. There's "sparse text that is trivially learnable (e.g. titles on cards)" and "sparse text that needs a cheatsheet (e.g. sentences of rules text on cards, e.g. Hellas)". (Followed by "Lots of text (too much for a cheatsheet to be realistic/feasible, e.g. Arkham Horror), and finally "Unplayable unless you know the language (because language is part of the game, e.g. Scrabble)"
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Kris Verbeeck
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FANTASTIC

For people who care about the project I started a poll about this before Grimwold told me about this thread . In the BGG suggestions forum

suggestion thread

dakarp wrote:


Things to consider--some games have a lot of language dependent content that is irrelevant to gameplay. Wildlife Adventure falls into this category. I only want one poll with only a few options, so I want to word this carefully to make the results as useful as possible.


So the question has to be how much does language influence gameplay.

I would also give an example of a game that someone knows
chess or other abstracts would be logical for 0 but I have chosen Power grid.

0 - NO in-game language. Example Power Grid
1 - some language, e.g. cards - small crib sheet. Example Catan
2 - moderate language - e.g. extensive crib sheet. Example San Juan
3 - heavy language. too much for paste up or crib sheets Example Agricola
4 - Language game; example Scrabble

As result I would like to read description.

I also would opt for the possibility of awarding multiple answers. (Agricola, Um reifenbreite are both games that have another language dependancy according to what you play (e.g. :family game, beginner rules without chance cards)

This would also be handy because some games are made language independant in a second edition or an edition by a different publisher

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Simon Lundström
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dakarp wrote:
Anyone want to improve that? It can have a bit more wording, but it shouldn't be too much more.


At least, keep the 5 categories instead of 4, I'd say. Even if it's one more, I think it has its place there, as the levels Grimwold are pretty deep down by now.

Language content of this game:
No text (0)
Very sparse text (1)
Moderate amount of text (2)
Lots of text (3)
Mechanically unplayable in another language (4)

I would prefer the "mechanically unplayable" to be there, to avoid people going "Damn, Agricola has so many cards, it's unplayable in another language!!", as category 4 is a very distinct category.
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Dave Dubin
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Zimeon wrote:
I would prefer the "mechanically unplayable" to be there, to avoid people going "Damn, Agricola has so many cards, it's unplayable in another language!!", as category 4 is a very distinct category.


On the other hand, "mechanically unplayable" is a function not only of the amount of language-specific material, but also the game's complexity and intended audience. Some games, like Polyglot, would be in a "foreign language instruction game" category. And I think some games just happen to be more fun if you don't speak the language well (Apples to Apples: Yiddish Edition) or at all (Dej sem Mozek).

 
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Scott Russell
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How about

None Carcassone
No functional text Place name and/or flavor text only
A few phrases needed Die Siedler
Cheat Sheets needed San Juan
Paste ups needed Agricola
Fluency required Scrabble

 
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