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Advanced Squad Leader: Starter Kit #3» Forums » Rules

Subject: Immobilized NT AFV in CC rss

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Michail Potemkin
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Hey guys,

Can a immobilized NT AFV fire its MA in any firephase against units in the same hex (e.g. units melee with the AFV)? The AFV cannot change its VCA and, I think the only way to fire is the AAMG?

I had a ridiculous situation in SK#3S23: a recalled StuGIII(l) was immobilized by a british squad and its LMG. The squad advanced later into CC and the StuG broke it by firing its 'Nahverteidigungswaffe'(sN). So the broken squad was held in melee by the StuG, but the StuG was not able to fire any weapon against the squad. The squad never pass a rally attempt and the sN of the StuG can only be fired after a CC-attack is made against the AFV, also the AAMG could't fire, because the AFV could not CE. So both units can't move and end the game in the same hex.

Cheers,

Bjoern aka Michail

P.S: I'm not a native speaker, sorry for the gibberish^^
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Merric Blackman
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It's not presented clearly in SK#3.

Basically, after the phase in which the vehicle becomes immobile, its bow mounted weapons (including NT weapons) may only be used against targets in its hex in Defensive First Fire if they enter the hex through its VCA - they can't be used in CC. (See the last paragraph of 7.6, and replace "bogged" with "bogged/immobile" for the last column, starting "A bogged vehicle can still expend MP" - it should be "A bogged/immobilized vehicle can still expend MP")

The situation you describe is possible in the SK#3 and is quite amusing.

In the full game, units have the option of withdrawing from Melee and broken units must attempt to withdraw; thus, in your example the broken unit would most likely withdraw to an adjacent hex from where it could act normally in further turns.

Cheers!
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bestia immonda
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ASL Rule-lawyer, where are thou?
 
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Jeff Thompson
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Why would a rules lawyer help?

A "rules lawyer" is someone who uses the rules to gain an advantage by manipulating ambiguous rules.

Just because someone knows the rules and can explain them doesn't make them a rules lawyer.

A good rules lawyer can take an ambiguous rule and make his opponent agree that it works in the lawyer's favor.

A really good rules lawyer is someone who can take a single ambiguous rule and argue for it to help him in one situation, then later in the same game, argue for it to mean something different, always helping him.

What we need is a person who knows the rules really well.

I'm always weak on when a vehicle is held in melee. I believe this is the case, Immobilized, where it is. Being in melee restricts it from doing any firing except in CC.

It is a strange event in SK like Merric said.

One of the more complex set of rules in ASL is how vehicles and infantry interact. It gets interesting with bypass movement, multiple Locations within a hex, concealment, etc.

 
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Kevin Duke
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By the way, Michall- your English is just fine. The only 'gibberish' in the posting comes from the system.
 
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Merric Blackman
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Tompy wrote:
I'm always weak on when a vehicle is held in melee. I believe this is the case, Immobilized, where it is. Being in melee restricts it from doing any firing except in CC.


Brief note: A vehicle is never held in melee; it only participates in CC. Infantry can be so held, but the Vehicle itself is not marked with a Melee counter. However, if there are units in the same Location the vehicle can't attack other locations (SK 3.2.2.1) [FULL RULES: unless the only unit in its location is unarmed/unarmoured (A7.212).]

Of course, you can immobilize a vehicle, but that's a little more severe than just being in Melee!

Cheers!

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Michail Potemkin
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Thanks for the quick replies!

It looked a little bit odd to me that a broken unit cant't rout away from a AFV that cant't use any weapons. I knew the withdraw-rule vom ASLRB1ed and was wondering. These situations are the drawback of the SKs. Less complexity for a better learning curve, but some strange situations, that cant't be handled in a 'realistic' way. But nevertheless, the ASLSKs are my way back to ASL and I have never played so much in the last 10 years.

@Kevin: Thanks! But its always easier to write a message in a forum, than to chat or to speak. So, the only moment I speak english is when I'am drunk^^ and with every bottle of booze it works better;-)

Cheers!
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Sean Deller
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Michail,

I am not sure if/how the ASLSK#3 rules deal with this, but in ASL the StuG, although Immobilized, would be able to fire it's MA at the squad during friendly fire phases as the StuG itself is not held in melee (just the squad).

Cheers, Sean
 
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Michail Potemkin
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I think Merric is right with his explanation. The situation I discribed is one the of the rare situations with broken units held in melee. In ASLSK3 are no such thinks like INF OVR, so broken units would rout away or be eleminated for failure to route before a enemy could enter their hex. Of course, a player may decide to fire in a melee hex...

Cheers,

Michail
 
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Andy Daglish
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Michail Potemkin wrote:
Hey guys,

Can a immobilized NT AFV fire its MA in any firephase against units in the same hex (e.g. units melee with the AFV)?


in some cases yes. The hex it is in is part of the VCA, but its not explained well: its the EX on page C8 of the ASL rules. As it is Immobilized, if enemeies are in its hex it can only fire at them.

Quote:
The AFV cannot change its VCA and, I think the only way to fire is the AAMG?


Vehicles can fire MA on same-hex targets by applying case E [+2], doubled for woods/buildings/rubble. Because its NT and immobilised, it can only fire its MA as DFF in the MPh when targets cross hexside of its VCA. This also applies to the cmg for two reasons: 1. its a VCA-only cmg [which also means it can't be used *to attack* in CC] and 2. its a cmg on an immobilised NT vehicle [I think this also forbids CC use].

Quote:
I had a ridiculous situation in SK#3S23: a recalled StuGIII(l) was immobilized by a british squad and its LMG. The squad advanced later into CC and the StuG broke it by firing its 'Nahverteidigungswaffe'(sN). So the broken squad was held in melee by the StuG, but the StuG was not able to fire any weapon against the squad. The squad never pass a rally attempt


broken units cannot be held in melee, but they don't rout from an established Melee either. They must Withdraw in the CCPh or be eliminated ["for Failure to Rout"]. When they are adjacent they must also Rout in the RPh for being adjacent to an enemy.

Quote:
and the sN of the StuG can only be fired after a CC-attack is made against the AFV, also the AAMG could't fire, because the AFV could not CE.


Unusually this aamg can fire without the crew being CE as it is remote-controlled [but Riders can't use it].

Quote:
So both units can't move and end the game in the same hex.


the ASL rules answer questions quickly & easily.
 
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