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Subject: Fun in the Sun Math Trade Discussion Thread - Final results posted! rss

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Jack K
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PLEASE NOTE: Due to my total inability to recognize that there's a difference between EST and EDT, I mistakenly said EST below. I have corrected this and apologize for any inconvenience caused.

By popular request (well, Rory asked for it anyway), it's time for another no-holds barred math trade...

I'm not going to reproduce the rules (such as they are) and helpful hints here, you can get them all from the header of the trade geeklist.

Trade geeklist: http://boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/31877
Request geeklist: http://boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/31889

JeffyJeff's OLWLG is available for this event. Use of it is strongly requested but not required.

Instructions can be found here http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/159648.


Key dates (all times EDT)

Open for posting games: Now to Monday, June 2nd, 11pm

Summary of games posted: (by) Tuesday, June 3rd, 10am

Want list submission period ends: Wednesday, June 4th at 11pm.

Results posted: (by) Thursday, June 5th at 10am

Results final: Thursday, June 5th at 3pm

Have at it...


Edited to add links to the OLWLG and a thread with instructions.
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Jack K
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Re: Fun in the Sun Math Trade Discussion Thread
The official summary can be found here:

http://home.earthlink.net/~anglotiger/FITS_summary.txt

And here are my want lists, for those who care:

http://home.earthlink.net/~anglotiger/FITS_JK_wants.txt
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Jack K
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Re: Fun in the Sun Math Trade Discussion Thread
We received submissions for all but 11 games from 6 users. A few more came in too late to accept. Sorry...

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Jack K
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Re: Fun in the Sun Math Trade Discussion Thread
Updated results can be found at:

http://home.earthlink.net/~anglotiger/FITS_results.txt


And Jeff has kindly converted these into a more readable form here:

http://activityclub.org/bgg/31877-results-summary.html

 
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Jack K
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Re: Fun in the Sun Math Trade Discussion Thread
And before I forget, here are the full want lists.

http://home.earthlink.net/~anglotiger/FITS_allwants.txt
 
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Jack K
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Re: Fun in the Sun Math Trade Discussion Thread
That's it. The results are now official!
 
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Re: Fun in the Sun Math Trade Discussion Thread
Thanks Jack! thumbsupthumbsupthumbsup
 
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Carl Anderson
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Re: Fun in the Sun Math Trade Discussion Thread
Damn you.
 
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Re: Fun in the Sun Math Trade Discussion Thread
Just when it felt like I couldn't wait any longer for a new MT. Thanks!
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Joe Huber

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Re: Fun in the Sun Math Trade Discussion Thread
Since you don't say _which_ prioritization you'll be using - might I suggest Scaled, rather than Linear? Scaled has the advantage of rewarding long wantlists - a good thing to encourage, IMHO, since such want lists drive more trades...
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Bill Johnston
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Re: Fun in the Sun Math Trade Discussion Thread
Unless you're trading something that's new in shrink, please double check to make sure it's in the condition you think it is in.

In the last math trade I joined, one of the games I received was moldy. I took some Windex to the board and I think that solved the problem (although the box is still stinky). I mentioned this to the trader and he had no idea; he had received it in an earlier trade and hadn't even opened it.

I've also been burned a couple times on non-English versions of games which the trader had thought were in English.

Anyway, even if you think you know exactly what condition your game is in, please take the time to double-check so your description is accurate.

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James Ludlow
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Re: Fun in the Sun Math Trade Discussion Thread
wjohnston wrote:
I mentioned this to the trader and he had no idea; he had received it in an earlier trade and hadn't even opened it.


I call BS (on the guy who gave you this line).

Who would really receive a game in trade, put it up in another trade, and then ship it out without ever opening the box?

 
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Re: Fun in the Sun Math Trade Discussion Thread
naming names is a bad idea, but i have got that exact line from someone about not opening a game received in a trade.

you may not believe it, but there are people out there who do that.
 
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Re: Fun in the Sun Math Trade Discussion Thread
wjohnston wrote:
Unless you're trading something that's new in shrink, please double check to make sure it's in the condition you think it is in.


seconded. i like to know details about any imperfections to a game i'm about to receive (or bid/trade for). Knowing these details doesn't preclude my bidding/trading. It helps set the right expectations for when i receive the game.

[rant]
I don't like to receive a game to find a few missing and/or replaced parts, significant edge or corner wear, taped ends, missing inserts, what have you, without knowing to expect it.

Please, please, please provide as much description as you can by inspecting the game prior to putting it up for trade.
[/rant]
 
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Re: Fun in the Sun Math Trade Discussion Thread
Drew1365 wrote:
Quote:
The weather is warming up here in the Northern Hemisphere


You mean, like, from 50ºF to 52ºF? robot


Hey - take what you can get...
 
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Re: Fun in the Sun Math Trade Discussion Thread
huber wrote:
Since you don't say _which_ prioritization you'll be using - might I suggest Scaled, rather than Linear? Scaled has the advantage of rewarding long wantlists - a good thing to encourage, IMHO, since such want lists drive more trades...


Well, I am all in favour of longer want lists and therefore more trades.

As I didn't specify what kind of priorities I will use to run the trade maximizer, I'm prepared to use scaled priorities unless there are any strong objections.

Using scaled priorities comes up with the same number of trades as linear priorities. The simplest way I can think of explaining the difference is that if there are multiple ways to get the same number of trades, ties are more often (but not always) broken in favour of a person with a longer want list. This is why it "has the advantage of rewarding long wantlists".

Something to bear in mind when making up your want lists. And longer want lists = more trades. Better for everyone, surely?

So, bearing that in mind, any strong objections?
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Re: Fun in the Sun Math Trade Discussion Thread
Can I list a game that I do not have, but will have and will ship once it releases (i.e. Galactic Emperor scheduled for release in late June)?
 
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Re: Fun in the Sun Math Trade Discussion Thread
rsolow wrote:
Can I list a game that I do not have, but will have and will ship once it releases (i.e. Galactic Emperor scheduled for release in late June)?


I'm not the moderator, but I'd be okay with this so long as you make it incredibly clear that this is the situation.
 
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Re: Fun in the Sun Math Trade Discussion Thread
carl67lp wrote:
rsolow wrote:
Can I list a game that I do not have, but will have and will ship once it releases (i.e. Galactic Emperor scheduled for release in late June)?


I'm not the moderator, but I'd be okay with this so long as you make it incredibly clear that this is the situation.


Actually I just answered this by GM and said the same thing. In general I don't want to allow this sort of thing, but Robert has a business selling games and the game comes out very soon. So I've agreed to this.
 
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Re: Fun in the Sun Math Trade Discussion Thread
anglotiger wrote:
Using scaled priorities comes up with the same number of trades as linear priorities. The simplest way I can think of explaining the difference is that if there are multiple ways to get the same number of trades, ties are more often (but not always) broken in favour of a person with a longer want list. This is why it "has the advantage of rewarding long wantlists".

Something to bear in mind when making up your want lists. And longer want lists = more trades. Better for everyone, surely?

So, bearing that in mind, any strong objections?


Hmm, interesting. I'd be for it, sure. Too bad I'm more picky now than I was in my first math trade -- I would've broken EVERY tie in that one! (I was just starting to build a game collection and was trading away some relics from the past. I hadn't played a ton at that point, and there were tons that seemed at least reasonably interesting. My lowest value items literally had 1 in 4 items of the ~1500 on their want lists!)

Guess that means I should add the longshot trade-ups that I usually leave off, I don't even want to play, and won't ever be able to trade for to my lists then?

Also, is it scaled and then linear? That is to say, does ordering your want lists matter whatsoever with scaled?
 
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Re: Fun in the Sun Math Trade Discussion Thread
Twinge wrote:
Also, is it scaled and then linear? That is to say, does ordering your want lists matter whatsoever with scaled?


In reverse order:

1) Yes, the ordering matters just as with linear wants - items closer to the start of your want list have higher priority (in trade maximizer terms, lower cost) than those later on your want list.

2) An example of how scaled priorities work, and how this compares to linear priorities:

First - the way that TradeMaximizer works is by finding the lowest cost solution. Without priorities, all trades have a cost of 1; non-trades have a cost of 1 billion. All solutions with the most trades have a cost of (non-trades x 1 billiosn) + trades.

With prioritization, trades have varying values - but those values are all still very, very small as compared to not trading. This allows for differentiation among the possible solutions, while still guaranteeing the most possible trades.

With linear prioritization, the values used are as follows:

A: B C D

B has a cost of 1, C 2, and D 3

B: C D E F G H I

C has a cost of 1, D 2, and so on up through I 7

=====

With the same want lists, but scaled priorities:

A: B C D

B has a cost of 1, as before.

C has a cost of 841

D has a cost of 1681

B: C D E F G H I

C has a cost of 1

D has a cost of 361

E has a cost of 721

F has a cost of 1081

G has a cost of 1441

H has a cost of 1801

I has a cost of 2161

=====

Notice the effect - the 5th item on the longer want list has a lower cost - and thus is ever so slightly more likely to trade - than the 3rd item on the shorter want list. Essentially what has been done is to spread each person's want list over the same range.

What's important to note is that:

1) The same number of trades are found, whether using no priorities, linear priorities, or scaled priorities.

2) The use of priorities as a tie-breaker only effects a fairly small set of games. Most of the games in the optimal trade need to be there; only a few do not.

There are two arguments for scaled priorities:

1) They are more equitable; linear priorities tend to favor short want lists.

2) They _encourage_ long want lists - the longer the want list, the lower the cost of the earlier items on the want list (after the first) - and thus the better a chance of getting a more wanted item.

This is important because the more items on want lists, the more trades you'll see. The trade percentages in recent trades have been really poor compared to the historic rates; TradeMaximizer has had the interesting effects of shortening the time between trades, and thus encouraging everyone to be choosier. If scaled priorities have the desired effect, they make individual math trades more efficient.
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Re: Fun in the Sun Math Trade Discussion Thread
Twinge wrote:
Hmm, interesting. I'd be for it, sure. Too bad I'm more picky now than I was in my first math trade


I know. I was thinking that I've become a lot pickier and as a result might be even less likely to make a trade. But if it means more trades in general perhaps I just need to change my ways a little...

Joe - thanks for the explanation in my absence.
 
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Re: Fun in the Sun Math Trade Discussion Thread
while the above arguments for scaled vs. linear priorities and longer want lists are informative, puh-lease remember the Golden Rule of Math Trades:

DO NOT PUT A GAME ON YOUR WANT LIST THAT YOU WOULD NOT BE ABSOLUTELY DELIGHTED TO RECEIVE

corollary-double check the game info-e.g. language, edition, shipping, etc.
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Re: Fun in the Sun Math Trade Discussion Thread
Thanks for running this.
 
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Joe Huber

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Re: Fun in the Sun Math Trade Discussion Thread
davido wrote:
DO NOT PUT A GAME ON YOUR WANT LIST THAT YOU WOULD NOT BE ABSOLUTELY DELIGHTED TO RECEIVE


Absolutely true. With scaled priorities, adding a game you'd be delighted with - albeit less delighted - won't hurt (and, in some cases, can even help) your chances of getting a game you'll be more delighted with. But that does _not_ mean that you should include a game you won't be happy to receive.
 
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