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Subject: FISA and centrism rss

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Jorge Montero
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My wife had CNN on, and they were talking about, what else, the campaign. They were reporting that many of his liberal supporters were afraid he was moving to the center with his position on the FISA bill's telco immunity.

So I wonder... how is telco immunity a right-left issue? How can granting immunity be considered centrist? First, I think it's an authoritarian-libertarian issue. And, even if it was a left-right issue, to be a centrist means that there's an even spread of opinions on each side. What is to the right of telco immunity? Giving them a bonus?

 
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John So-And-So
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Koldfoot wrote:
It's not a left-right issue. It is a left issue.


How does an all-round circle-jerk-pardoning jive with a conservative worldview?

Oh wait, never mind. I forgot one of your party's center planks: "Rich guys always get off scot-free".
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John So-And-So
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Koldfoot wrote:
anti-Bush sentiment and the high price of gas


What a fun colloquialism for "an economy in the shitter, a 7-year-old war nobody wanted, an ever-widening class divide and more power concentrated in the executive branch than at any time in recorded history".

But yeah, 'anti-Bush sentiment' actually does cover that pretty well I guess.
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John So-And-So
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Koldfoot wrote:

For the record the economy is not as bad as it was in the latter years of the Clinton administration, and the press didn't say a word about it then. The next time you hear an economic report, whether it is about the weak dollar or the housing market you will note that it is the worst since "the late 90s" or "hasn't been this bad in 9 years". Of course the price of gas is record high.


Brilliant logic! It's bad, been getting worse for the last 7 years, but it's not as bad as when THE DEVIL was president, so let's all have a hoedown and fire off'n our pistols, we seen higher water.

Koldie, do you honestly not see the irony in whining about the Clinton years just two posts after whining about how we whine about Bush?

Quote:
Case in point: You will note that Cap listed a couple vague generalizations that have about as much substance as "hope", and not a single real issue.


If you honestly believe that the economy, the war, and the rape of personal freedoms by the executive branch are not 'real issues', then I don't think I ever need to bother "arguing" with you about politics again.

P.S. I bet dollars to donuts that these issues all suddenly become VERY important to you in 2009 when they are still in the crapper under president Obama.

OH MY GOD HES TAPPING OUR PHONES AND HE AINT EVEN WEARIN NO FLAG PIN
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Steve Vondra
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To answer the OP
1) Most Americans consider themselves centrists (except Cap Ap & Koldie)
2) Most Americans do not look deeply into any issue, preferring oversimplified sound bites & talking points.
3) If one side can convince the sheep electorate, via the media, that one view is the centrist view rather than a far Right(or Left)approach, it becomes so much easier to bamboozle the American people.

This method can, and is used by both sides with alarming regularity.

If instead the article stated that the Telcom industry and the administration are desperate to assure immunity for a clear violation of the fourth amendment before the Dems take over, the other side of this issue would be considered the "centrist" view within the story.

Spin baby, spin.
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Steve Vondra
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My point was that the article as` stated was spin to the right and the "clear violation" is spin to the left.
 
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Bela's dead and Vampira won't talk
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CapAp wrote:
What a fun colloquialism for "an economy in the shitter, a 7-year-old war nobody wanted [lc's emphasis], an ever-widening class divide and more power concentrated in the executive branch than at any time in recorded history".
But yeah, 'anti-Bush sentiment' actually does cover that pretty well I guess.


As a Bush hater myself, I feel that it's in the interests of reality to point out that most of the country did in fact support the war initially.

I say this not to absolve the (obviously culpable with regards to executing said war) Bush administration, but rather to point out that Americans as a whole need to wake up about the reality of gung-ho faith in the government in general, and the harsh realities of war in particular.
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Jeff
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Koldfoot wrote:
cooler king wrote:
a clear violation of the fourth amendment ... Spin baby, spin.


laugh laugh laugh

Clear as mud. That's why democrats have to work so hard to make it an issue. Warrants were sought by law enforcement officers and issued by a judge in this case. The level of evidence for a warrant to be issued has always been low. It's just that court proceedings are secret. This is hardly a death blow to the Republic.

Good luck persuading people that people who claim to be at war with the US need to be granted the same rights in the same courts as regualar Americans.

Spin, baby, spin.


If the only people who were affected by this (and frankly, we don't know who is affected by this, because it's a big hush-hush secret) were "people who claim to be at war with America," I don't see why they shouldn't have the same rights in the same courts as "regular Americans." And I certainly don't see why it needs to be hidden from the people.

Even the worst, most America-hating, baby-eating, freedom-destroying liberal jury would not have a problem convicting an actual terrorist in a real court.

I can understand the classic conservative point of view. I cannot, however, understand how somebody can think that American citizens are better off being kept in the dark about the actions of their own government, or how the unchecked expansion of executive power is good for the country. You do realize that a President Obama would have the same overreaching powers, right?

If what the telcoms did to protect 'Merica isn't a clear violation of the fourth amendment, or at least the law, then why do they need immunity, anyway?

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Bela's dead and Vampira won't talk
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Koldfoot wrote:

economy, the war, and the rape of personal freedoms

Do note: The economy, and rape of personal freedoms are vague terms that mean little. Democratic proposals to ban guns, control health care, and and limit freedom of speech on AM radio are a "rape of personal freedom" from where I'm sitting.


Certainly neither party has a monopoly on the rape of personal freedoms. Just look at the votes for the Patriot Act. (Thanks for the love, Russ.)

Democrats do it for the "greater good" of our society's internal issues ("Oh God! Someone's smoking in a bar! A private business where members of the public go!"), and Republicans do it for the "greater good" of security ("Oh God! This guy placed a call to Iran and therefore is probably a terrorist. Let's find out!").

I personally approve of neither, but certainly the Republicans of recent decades--and the Bush administration in particular--have won the hypocrisy game by stomping on the individual liberty that they espouse, once a core "conservative" value.

Quote:
Both conservatives and liberals agree that war is terrible. To be against war is to be human. To exploit that human trait, despite evidence that the war is just, is simple, uninspired politics.


Nearly everyone agrees that Saddam was a tyrant and an evil man. Moreover, history has shown that there are times when evil tyrants must be brought to justice. That established, this war wasn't sold on justice. The war was sold on Saddam's supposed WMDs and connections to al-Qaeda, both notions that Iraq was a threat to the US and our allies abroad.

If it's justice we're after, Kim Jong-il and Robert Mugabe are still out there, and it is in my opinion hard to claim that they're not more monstrous than Saddam. I very much doubt the apathetic (and generally ignorant) moderates who supported a war against an anthrax wielding, Osama-lovin' Saddam would have supported a war against him simply because he was a bad guy.

It is--politely stated--the disingenuousness behind this war that makes some of us hate it so much, not the simple fact that war is terrible.
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Dickie Crickets
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Quote:

If what the telcoms did to protect 'Merica isn't a clear violation of the fourth amendment, or at least the law, then why do they need immunity, anyway?


They need immunity because telecommunications lobbyists are major financial backers of Bush and his allies, and one can't let a little thing like the Constitution get between good buddies.
 
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John So-And-So
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Koldfoot wrote:
He gave us tax cuts and turned things around.

Haha! Well, maybe he gave you a tax cut. I got a cash bribe early on, I remember that. But I don't make enought money to have ever been affected by any of his tax cuts. If you do, then no wonder you're a Republican.

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The Bush economy then survived 9-11, which surprised all the experts. The experts were anticipating every conceiveable scenario primarily the collapse of the insurance industry.

Laughable. "The experts" will say just about anything you want them to have said if you find the right "experts". Our country 'rebounded' from a building falling down!? Amazing!

Nazi Germany bombed England into rubble in world war 2. Now that's a conceivable scenario for economic disaster. If you blame nationwide unemployment increases on one building being bombed, you want to be fooled.

Quote:
I would note that the price of oil has skyrocketed since democrats took control of Congress, and any thought of new oil drilling was quashed.

I would note that the price of oil skyrocketed when we started a war and oil companies realized they could rape us and claim cost increases. I would also note they've raised prices again every time anything has happened anywhere to anybody.

Quote:
War is a gimme. Wars are never popular for long. Both conservatives and liberals agree that war is terrible. To be against war is to be human. To exploit that human trait, despite evidence that the war is just, is simple, uninspired politics.

What. The. Fuck.

Are you serious?
 
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Steve Wagner
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To add to this conversation, all I can say about almost everyone in the government is that I trust them as much as I trust the board of my company that I work for. Which means, I'm always on the lookout for a new job and I'm always on the lookout for when my rights will be taken away. It doesn't matter which side you're on, you have to think, "Do we really want any of these people running our country?"

Another thing I realize is that this is the recession that we should have gotten after 9/11. We kept delaying it for years and years and even had a false boom time and now we're paying the price. I think it'll get worse before it gets better, but hopefully everyone in DC will get their heads out and work on this issue together. Although I expect they'll all look out for number one and we'll all be down the river.
 
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