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Subject: Christians? rss

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Michael Tsuk
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I hope the description here isn't accurate, or if it is, that there's time to fix the game:

Quote:
persecution of the Christians


Sylla (or Sulla, as his name is more commonly spelled these days) died in 78BC. No Christians around for him to persecute!

I love Roman-themed games, but prefer that the theme have some relation to reality!
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Giles Pritchard
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The description on BGN doesn't mention Christians...

http://www.boardgamenews.com/index.php/boardgamenews/comment...

Cheers,

Giles.

 
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W. Eric Martin
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I'll publish a detailed preview of Sylla on Boardgame News in September or October, but the short answer is that some of the characters you acquire are Christians, one event card requires each player to flip a Christian character face down each time it happens (although they come back into play if the event leaves), and Christians are worth bonus points at the end of the game to mark the advent of Christianity.

Eric
Editor, http://www.BoardgameNews.com
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Michael Tsuk
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Eric,

Thanks for the info. I'm now much less interested in the game than I was.
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Dan Blum
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Ditto. If the game were covering a large span of time, this would be reasonable, but even taking the most generous possible view of the struggle to succeed Sulla, said struggle ended no later than 27 BCE, when Augustus became Emperor. Still 60 years or so before there were any Christians, and even longer before they were a significant factor in Roman politics.
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Cisco Serret
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There were "radical" Jews at the time that wanted to split away from Judaism, expecting a savior to appear. These were called "proto-Christians", and I think (if I remember my college history) there were a number of "saviors" identified, who did not work out, before Jesus.

The term "Christian" derives from the name of the Hindu God "Krishna". "Christianity" didn't start as the name of a religion until many years after the death of Jesus.
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Dan Blum
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Cisco Serret wrote:
There were "radical" Jews at the time that wanted to split away from Judaism, expecting a savior to appear. These were called "proto-Christians", and I think (if I remember my college history) there were a number of "saviors" identified, who did not work out, before Jesus.


None of that had any major effect on Rome - some of it might have had a minor effect on Roman policy in Judea, but there certainly weren't radical Jews running around Rome itself, the way there were Christians later.

Quote:
The term "Christian" derives from the name of the Hindu God "Krishna". "Christianity" didn't start as the name of a religion until many years after the death of Jesus.


No, it doesn't. It's from Greek. While it kind of looks like "Krishna" that is a poor way of evaluating word relationships - as far as I can tell the words are not even derived from the same IE root, although I could be wrong on that.
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László K.
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For more on the term "Christian", read:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_early_Christianity#A...
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Karis Shem
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Of course we're totally aware of the fact there were no christians during the reign of Sylla but :

1) the timespan of the game is not precisely defined. One turn means "many years".

2) the game is not a "simulation" of this period, nor an history book.

Sylla will give you the possibility to feel the flavor of roman political intrigues, but it's not 100% accurate. That's not the goal of a game...
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Greg Cox
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Unfortunately it sounds like its not even 10% accurate. Why base it in the age of Sulla (a very interesting choice btw)but then add Christians instead of a Roman cult of the time? May as well add dragons and medieval knights
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Dan Blum
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I make a distinction between unrealistic game elements and what I call "anti-realistic" elements, for lack of a better term.

All games have elements which are unrealistic in the context of their themes, because they're games - things are simplified or left out, players have more or less control over certain aspects than they should, time is compressed, etc. That's all usually necessary to make a playable game.

What I call anti-realistic elements are those which directly contradict the theme. I do not see a lot of those, which is good, because while I usually don't play a game for the theme, I like the theme to have some relevance. Christians in the Roman Republic are anti-realistic - if you have them, you really don't have a theme.

If the game actually covers several hundred years of time, then having Christians is reasonable, but in that case the descriptions I have seen so far, which make it sound as if it's just about the immediate aftermath of the first Roman civil war, need some serious adjustment.
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Karis Shem
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As i said, the timespan is not precisely defined.

The game is about the struggle for power in Roma, a problem which is persistent enough to have a long timespan.

We choose Sylla, because he restorated the power of the senate. Players are senators (or a senator family), so we thought it was a good period for a beginning. The lenght of a turn is not precised and i don't think it needs to be precised.

We could have replaced the Christians with another foreign cult (Isis for exemple) but as it's more a global game we choose more representative events of the roman life...

Regards,
Cyril
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Tim Harrison
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Karis wrote:
We could have replaced the Christians with another foreign cult (Isis for exemple) but as it's more a global game we choose more representative events of the roman life...

Regards,
Cyril

I, for one, think you made the right choice. It doesn't bother me at all. In fact, I like it that way.

Afterall, it's a game!
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Chaddyboy
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So long as the game is good, they could good have said there were dinosaurs in Rome and I wouldn't care! To me, the theme is just there to give me the illusion that I'm not just pushing cubes and money around.
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Karis Shem
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Thank you, but the theme of Sylla is not pasted-on. When i play it, i feel like a politician

Hope you'll like the game. I don't know if there's new mechanisms but the feel of the game, thanks to Dominique, is really different from modern management games.

REgards,
Cyril
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Hannes Riener
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GamesOnTheBrain wrote:
Karis wrote:
We could have replaced the Christians with another foreign cult [...]
Afterall, it's a game!

Sure it is just a game - but why is it then called "Sulla" when it doesn't care about it's historical defaults?

Sulla died 78 BC!

When I think - Gettysburg was 1863... 1863 + 78 makes sweet 1941. Just to stimulate some cool new game ideas with fancy historical themes.
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Tim Harrison
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chaddyboy_2000 wrote:
So long as the game is good, they could good have said there were dinosaurs in Rome and I wouldn't care! To me, the theme is just there to give me the illusion that I'm not just pushing cubes and money around.

I agree.

@Hannes... A 78 year difference in modern times is nothing like a 78 year difference in ancient times. Technological and culture changes over time are exponential nowadays. Back then they were not.
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Jens Hoppe
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tsuk wrote:
No Christians around for him to persecute!


But had there been, I am sure he would have!

Personally, I see no problem with a, well, generic game (if that is an accurate description) about Roman politics being named after one of the republic's most prominent statesmen.
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Ugur Dönmez
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So this would be the first game not to have a pasted-on theme, but a pasted-on NAME? Guess they could have avoided this discussion by using the name of a later Roman politician, but I guess this was the only one with Y and S in his name?
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Hannes Riener
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@GamesOnTheBrain
Don't get me wrong - as long as I can read Ystari on it I even buy an box with an old shoe in it as till today I was not disappointed by Ystari...

Quote:
@Hannes... A 78 year difference in modern times is nothing like a 78 year difference in ancient times.

True for my provocative example. But apart from any differences in technical development since then ... one should not lump Sulla and Christians together.

Anyone remembers Phalanx's Nero?
Nero died 68.
The Kolosseum what you can see on the box art was built between 72 und 80.
So - would you call it a faux pas to depict Nero next to the Kolosseum or ... heck! 4 years? Who really cares?

Actually - as soon as I embed a game in an historical era, it is not that I should care about it, then I have to care about it.

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Darrell Pavitt
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Hannes wrote:
@GamesOnTheBrain
Don't get me wrong - as long as I can read Ystari on it I even buy an box with an old shoe in it as till today I was not disappointed by Ystari...

Anyone remembers Phalanx's Nero?
Nero died 68.
The Kolosseum what you can see on the box art was built between 72 und 80.
So - would you call it a faux pas to depict Nero next to the Kolosseum or ... heck! 4 years? Who really cares?




You mean the Nero that is the 54th worst rated game on BGG? Yeah, we remember it...
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Ian MacInnes
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I don't see any reason to like a Euro game less if it is not historically accurate. The purpose of such themes is not to simulate but rather to make it easier to understand the underlying game mechanics. If theme is more important to you than that this may not be the style of game for you. I would buy a game about doing the dishes, going to the dentist, or mowing the lawn if the game mechanics were interesting enough.
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Hannes Riener
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Historical faultiness; same like cleaning the dishes... may I talk to your wife for a minute?
 
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Karis Shem
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Just back from hollidays and i can see there was quite a discussion about Sylla, christians and so on...

So, more precisions :

- We choose Sylla, mainly because he was the man who restorated roman senate to its full power. Then he withdrew from polical life, quite a good setting for a game !

- We don't feel we need to be precisely accurate about dates, because i don't think it's the purpose of a game. In this kind of game, the goal is not to simulate the real roman history, but to emulate it. So Sylla dies, and then you've got to make your own history.

- People should not trust anything else than historical research when they want to learn about history. For example in Agricola (which is a game i appreciate a lot), there's a huge struggle for wood, but in the medieval era Europe was covered with forest. Is it that important ? Not that much, because the struggle for wood is more important here for gaming purpose. Another one : most historical films (Gladiator, if you want a roman example) are totally filled with inacuracies, but it's just a movie, so sometimes History is not big enough for the audience. I'd say it's not a problem as long as you don't think there's a precise representation of History in movies or games, which is not their purpose.

My mission is to produce good game and maybe to give the players the envy to know more about Sylla or the roman empire. My mission is not to teach History to the players. Should i add an advertisement in the game about this ? I don't think so, common sense should prevail here...

- When we developed Sylla, we wanted the timespan to be very long (each turn is symbolised by the achievement of a "great work" like the Colosseum). Rather than saying "one turn is 80 years" which is too accurate in my mind (as we're not simulating history), we choose to say nothing. So we filled the game with Roman clichés and we'll let players make their own roman history...

REgards,
Cyril

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Gláucio Reis
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Karis wrote:
- We choose Sylla, mainly because he was the man who restorated roman senate to its full power.

OK, you said it twice, but we all know the real reason, as another poster pointed out, is that the name has the letters y and s. And as yet another poster said, this may be the first game with a pasted-on name. I don't mind whether it has Christians or not, but I find it strange (and unimaginative) to name a game after a historical character that is in no way central to the theme (pretty much like Perikles). Man, the letters are even not in the correct order!
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