Recommend
2 
 Thumb up
 Hide
10 Posts

Shadows over Camelot» Forums » Variants

Subject: Good Knight Turned Bad rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Michael Aucoin
United States
Metairie
Louisiana
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
In this variant nobody looks the loyalty cards when they are dealt out. You should only look at your loyalty card after the first failed quest. At that point someone gives up hope and switch to the "dark side" (the person with the traitor card).

This does make the game a little easier so I suggest using the squire rules and always having a traitor among the loyalty cards. If the knights win the game without ever losing a quest than there was no traitor.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Travis Hall
Australia
Brisbane
Queensland
flag msg tools
Why? What do you hope to achieve with this variant?

The only effect of this I can see is to make the game easier for the loyal knights, and then you undo that by throwing in the squire rules.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steve Yen
United States
San Diego
California
flag msg tools
mb
But sometimes quests are unwillingly lost, regardless of loyalty. And if there is always a traitor, I know this is going to sound obvious, how is everyone going to be loyal? Loopholes....
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Michael Aucoin
United States
Metairie
Louisiana
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I often teach new players how to win this game. This can conflict with my object if I am the traitor. In this variant everyone plays loyal until a quest is lost. At that point you look at your loyalty card. Now you may have to change your strategy (if you are a traitor) but at least the new players had a chance to learn the game before dealing with a traitor.

This variant also goes well with the theme. A trusted knight changes sides when things don't go right.

As for the squire rules, I didn't intend to make the game easier, just easier to teach.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ted Groth
United States
Appleton
Wisconsin
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I have done something like this in the past with when teaching the game to my Brother-in-Law and my two Nephews. We didn't hand out the loyalty cards until there were six swords on the table (any color) and we didn't use the squire rules. But six swords down is really a little bit too late. I was thinking that three swords on the table would be a better limit, but I like the thematic tie of the traitor secretly turning after the first failed quest.

This is a great way to play with new players. (without the squire rules) It is easier to teach the first few rounds if everybody knows that that you are loyal to the cause at that point.

For experienced players, it can add to the tension of the game if you don't know whether your knight might turn traitor later in the game. The suggestion of the using the squire rules can balance out the absence of the traitor in the early game. For that matter, it can be difficult to catch the traitor in the reduced time, so the game might not be that easy.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ted Groth
United States
Appleton
Wisconsin
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
stevey629 wrote:
But sometimes quests are unwillingly lost, regardless of loyalty.

Yes of course quests are sometimes unwillingly lost. The first quest lost is not caused by a traitor, but simply because the knights can't attend to all the quests at once.

stevey629 wrote:
And if there is always a traitor, I know this is going to sound obvious, how is everyone going to be loyal? Loopholes....

At the start of the game everyone should assume that they are loyal, because no one has seen their loyalty cards yet, and most knights will turn out to be loyal.

The first failed quest triggers the use of the loyalty cards, and only then does one of the knights turn traitor. His change of loyalty is presumably because he is disheartened by the failed quest.shake

If you want, you can wait to distribute the loyalty cards until after the first failed quest, rather than dealing the cards out at the start but not looking at them until later. It doesn't make any real difference to the game play, either way. When playing with the kids, we waited to distribute the cards so there wouldn't be any "accidental" viewing of the loyalty cards early in the game.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kevin Duke
United States
Wynne
Arkansas
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
But it handicaps the traitor's ability to make subtle differences.

By this rule, one or more quests can be successfully completed before anyone knows he should be looking for ways to defeat the group. That will force him to be more overt.

I've never thought we needed a "reason" for someone to turn traitor and I don't find anything appealing about this version, save for the possibility of the only person who knows the game and is teaching it being the traitor. There are easier ways to deal with that without messing up the balance and timing.

One thumb down.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Cameron McKenzie
United States
Atlanta
Georgia
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
kduke wrote:
But it handicaps the traitor's ability to make subtle differences.

By this rule, one or more quests can be successfully completed before anyone knows he should be looking for ways to defeat the group. That will force him to be more overt.

I've never thought we needed a "reason" for someone to turn traitor and I don't find anything appealing about this version, save for the possibility of the only person who knows the game and is teaching it being the traitor. There are easier ways to deal with that without messing up the balance and timing.

One thumb down.


Not exactly. The overt traitor's power is DIRECTLY proportional to the number of turns he gets in relation to the good knight's turns. The traitor counts as a good knight if he doesn't know he's the traitor yet. Thus, the overt traitor is weakened with every turn he acts like a good knight.

On the other hand, quite a large amount of the covert knight's comes from the sword flip at the end of the game. This power is unaffected by how many turns he gets. He may cause a little bit of damage during his turns by making subtly suboptimal moves, but this accounts for little of the damage caused, so if he loses some of these turns it's not as big of a loss..

In other words, keeping the cards hidden for any amount of time hurts the overt traitor MORE than it hurts the covert traitor.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ryan Morgan
United States
Visalia
California
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I think this is a great idea for games where you have a group of people learning how to play the game.

In my experience its really hard for a new player to try and grasp how to play the game and then find out they are the traitor and have to figure out how to play the game and subvert the group.

I like this idea.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ian Enriquez
United States
California
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Obviously, if you don't like the idea, you don't have to play it. But it is still good to discuss ideas on here. I also found that different groups of people play games very differently and house rules that cater to that specific group may not work so well for another.

I, for one, like the idea. I do think that this only affects overt traitors which I find less fun to play with. I enjoy the mystery and paranoia of unknown traitors in the game so when someone plays overtly, all of that is lost.

One idea I was thinking of doing the next time I played is that loyalty cards are drawn by knights on a completed quest. Thematically, it is a greed/temptation or disillusionment thing. So not all of the knights will even have a loyalty card at the same time. Another idea is that if a player goes down a life or two, then they draw their loyalty card as their self-sacrifice forces them to begin questioning their loyalty.

I do like some of the special traitor abilities in the other threads here which would be worth trying out as well.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.