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Subject: Minor Improvement - 'Return the old oven' rss

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A fairly simple question that came up in a recent game:

There are minor improvements that have a pre-requisite involving returning another improvement, for example 'Baker's Oven" where "the old oven is returned...".

We played it where, if you did not have an old oven, then you didn't need to return one, but you could still play the card.

However you could interpret the card as meaning you cannot play the card unless you can return an oven.

Which is correct?
 
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Eugene van der Pijll
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dwrigley wrote:
We played it where, if you did not have an old oven, then you didn't need to return one, but you could still play the card.

The text "return oven" is in the upper left corner of the card, which means it is a pre-requisite, and therefore required: you must return an oven. See also page 8 of the English rule book on "Upgrade cards".

So you've been playing it wrong.
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pijll wrote:
dwrigley wrote:
We played it where, if you did not have an old oven, then you didn't need to return one, but you could still play the card.

The text "return oven" is in the upper left corner of the card, which means it is a pre-requisite, and therefore required: you must return an oven. See also page 8 of the English rule book on "Upgrade cards".

So you've been playing it wrong.


I understand the logic of what you are saying however disagree with the way this feels. For example, in my 7 minors, the chance of me getting eg 'Wood Fired Oven' (no prerequisite) and 'Bakehouse' (prerequisite = return 1 oven) is pretty low. Therefore, in terms of minors, the Bakehouse is useless because I will rarely have an oven to return. Even if I do have the two cards, the cost (by returning one) becomes 3 wood and 4 stone (in the example used above). Of course I could return a major improvement oven ... but even that becomes stupidly expensive.

sigh ... I must be missing the point or something maybe...
 
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Eugene van der Pijll
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dwrigley wrote:
Of course I could return a major improvement oven ... but even that becomes stupidly expensive.

Yes, that's the idea. I think the baking oven will be most frequently used to upgrade a major improvement oven.

The baking oven is cheap! Note that upgrading to a baking oven is free, except that it costs you a minor improvement action, which is just half a turn, and which would otherwise often go wasted. And you gain (compared to e.g. the clay oven) 1 vp, 1 immediate baking action, and the ability to bake 1 additional grain into 5 food.

I don't think the costs and benefits of the cards are unbalanced, but if they were, I would say the card is too cheap for what it does.
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Tiwaz Tyrsfist
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dwrigley wrote:
pijll wrote:
dwrigley wrote:
We played it where, if you did not have an old oven, then you didn't need to return one, but you could still play the card.

The text "return oven" is in the upper left corner of the card, which means it is a pre-requisite, and therefore required: you must return an oven. See also page 8 of the English rule book on "Upgrade cards".

So you've been playing it wrong.


I understand the logic of what you are saying however disagree with the way this feels. For example, in my 7 minors, the chance of me getting eg 'Wood Fired Oven' (no prerequisite) and 'Bakehouse' (prerequisite = return 1 oven) is pretty low. Therefore, in terms of minors, the Bakehouse is useless because I will rarely have an oven to return. Even if I do have the two cards, the cost (by returning one) becomes 3 wood and 4 stone (in the example used above). Of course I could return a major improvement oven ... but even that becomes stupidly expensive.

sigh ... I must be missing the point or something maybe...


So, your supposed to buy the Major Improvement ovens, then return one of them to play your Minor Improvement upgrade.

Like, you take one action to buy a major improvement, spend your clay, and get the clay oven (1 grain -> 5 food 1x per baking). Then later you take another action to buy a minor improvement to play your Bakehouse (1 grain -> 5 food 2x per baking), and to pay for the Bakehouse, return the Clay Oven to the Major Improvement Board.
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Melissa
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The oven is part of the cost of the improvement.

You must return an oven. That's why it says it on the card.
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Matthew Watson
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From the rulebook at the top of page 8:

Quote:
Some Minor Improvements are Upgrade cards. Playing these cards not only costs goods but also requires the player to return an existing played or acquired Improvement.


From the chapter entitled Improvement Cards on page 7:

Quote:
Some Minor Improvements require the player to have a prerequisite – these are shown in the top left corner. In order to play these cards, the player must have the required goods, tiles or cards on the table in front of him or her.

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David Barry
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The "Minor" in "minor improvement" is there for a reason. Minor improvements are always less directly useful (or less points) than Major improvements, and major improvements are harder to get out (in terms of actions, if not cost). OTOH, some minor improvements can offer huge benefits to an already purchased major improvement....
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Thanks everyone for clearing that up for me.
My wife is still cross .... she is the one who told me to play it the way I had described above... and I must do as I am told!!!

I am sure she will come round to your reasoning
 
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Steve Duff
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I'm going to try this the next time I buy a car... "I don't have an old car to trade in, but we still play it so I can get the new one at the lower price, right?"
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