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Subject: Poll about some issues bothering me rss

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Daniel Danzer
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THIS IS NO COMPLAINT.

But I am a bit disappointed about more and more people leaving, unfriendly comments, deleted stuff - I still like this site, but I am confused by the things going on and on.

I created a poll to see the opinions of some other users about some issues bothering me.

--------------------------------------------------------------

Of course, people take things more or less serious and handle them differently. BGG has more than 200 000 registred users. Some of these are thinking seriously and discusing about how this site could get improved to be (stay?) a bit more an open community and a bit less developing into (already is?) - something else. Some of these people left.

So, here is a little poll about this (and other questions, as confused as I am):

Poll
1. Should the leaving of some well-known users make us think about some things they were trying to discuss, or not?
I don`t care about discussing "BGG politics", so: no.
It makes me think already.
I was thinking before about certain issues and continue to do so.
If you want to discuss "BGG politics", do it somehere else, but not on BGG, this is a site about gaming.
Traitors! Ban them "in absentia" and never let them come back!
2. There is some non-transparency concerning vanishing or moved threads or geeklists, banned users, admin decisions, whatever. What do you think about this?
I don`t care.
More transparency would be better.
More transparency would mean more threads, discussions, rants and whining, it would overgrow the relevant infos: About the games we all love!
Take it as it is or leave the site!
3. How about "funny" or disrespectful posts by admins in threads about serious issues?

I don`t care.
They are also only human beings. They can have a bad day. No reason to leave, buddy.
More adequacy would be better, especially by admins.
Take it as it is or leave the site!
4. "Contextual ads" were added even on top of each user`s profile (on top of mine, there appear ads for "Duchamp" shirts or ties and more stuff like that) – without informing the users about it or giving them any possibility to do something about it. Questionable?


I don`t care.
I never realized - interesting, though.
Less ads would be better, at least the user profiles shouldn`t be "polluted".
This site needs some money, right? So, don`t make a mountain out of a molehill.
Take it as it is or leave the site!
5. I have a growing feeling, that the attitude of the "BGG-authorities" seems a bit similar to the one of the IOC: We want a clean surface, statements about the BGG-"politics" are rather made invisible or ignored.

I don`t care.
BGG "politics" threads ARE as visible as anything else.
BGG "politics" threads should be as visible as anything else.
Free Tibet!
Take it as it is or leave the site!
6. Any thread concerning bans or containing the Name "Barnes" is considered a "complaint", regardless of the real content or discussion of this thread. How about that?

I don`t care.
Questions about Barnes or bannings are not necessarily complaints, so this practice has to be changed.
Move this thread immediately into the "Complaint Department", please!
Aldie is BGG-God. He can decide how any word is defined in the borders of his universe. So take it as it is or leave his site!
NOOOO! Not this again !!!
      214 answers
Poll created by duchamp


Thanks for participating, if you did.
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If Actions Speak Louder Than Words, Then Actions x2 Speak Louder Than Actions
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These selections are hardly comprehensive. Unless, by comprehensive, I mean furthering your opinions and slight gradations thereof.
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Daniel Danzer
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joebelanger wrote:
These selections are hardly comprehensive. Unless, by comprehensive, I mean furthering your opinions and slight gradations thereof.


Well, their task is not comprehensiveness. I took two opposing opinions and some in-between, further annotations can be made in posts, I think.

I am no professional poll-maker , just looking for some ideas about my own opinions and - you know, a way out of my confusion.
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Daniel Danzer
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Kevin C wrote:
I answered 'I don't care' to most of the questions, because I thought it was the answer which was closest. But 'I don't care' is a very loaded term. I do care, but I don't imagine that changing things will do anything except rearrange the discontent.


Thanks for your thoughtful reply! Wich more precise answers you would have checked?

Maybe:
"Things aren`t perfect, but different wouldn`t be better, so leave it like it is." ?
 
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Dave Peters
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Powers:Coleridge:Milton: Faith...must be, if anything, a clear-eyed recognition of the patterns and tendencies, to be found in every piece of the world's fabric, which are the lineaments of God.
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For me, it's something like:

"Things aren't perfect, but there are many alternate patterns of arrangement that are significantly poorer. If we desire change simply because the existing arrangement has unfortunate pathologies, we do ourselves a disservice if we fail also to consider the undesirable behaviours that may arise from the changed system."

Which is also, admittedly, a really horrid bit of convoluted language.
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Kent Fletcher
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Number 5 is not even a question!?! Also there is no clear way to answer "yes" to Question #1.
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Daniel Danzer
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Frankenfletch wrote:
Number 5 is not even a question!?! Also there is no clear way to answer "yes" to Question #1.


You can check any opinion to my opinion. What for does it have to be a question?

"Yes" would have been good, that`s right. But the "I already think" is almost the same, okay?
 
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Diane Close
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duchamp wrote:
I am no professional poll-maker , just looking for some ideas about my own opinions ...


I’m glad you clarified that, because what you created is list of your opinions, couched in the form of poll questions, followed by answers shaped by your own personal experiences.

A poll is good when you don't know what others think, but want to know. It should include a wide range of responses, using neutral language so as not to bias the outcome.

It sounds like you would be better off asking for some ideas about your opinions, rather than just conducting a poll. I don't think the answers you get from this poll will bring you the clarity you seek.
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Daniel Danzer
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pdclose wrote:
... what you created is list of your opinions, couched in the form of poll questions, followed by answers shaped by your own personal experiences.

A poll is good when you don't know what others think, but want to know. It should include a wide range of responses, using neutral language so as not to bias the outcome.

It sounds like you would be better off asking for some ideas about your opinions, rather than just conducting a poll. I don't think the answers you get from this poll will bring you the clarity you seek.


They already did. The range of checked answers is quite wide, abd of course this is a "personal poll", as I said in the very beginning.

The broad discussion of any single topic and the long and huge discussions in many threads, combined with youtube-videos, insults, hijacking, trolling, snappy remarks, etc., don`t seem to be very fruitful to me, so I decided to make this as a poll. It is a tool to simplify an overview, so to me, it works.

But you are right considering this as a "real" poll like some institution would create to see, if Obama is in the lead or not.

BTW, things turn out okay for me. I see a tendency already ...
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Dennis Ugolini
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You are missing several applicable responses. For example, on #3, I wanted to answer "Admins are human beings, and pretty funny ones at that. Their sarcastic responses amuse me."
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Daniel Danzer
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Drew1365 wrote:
I will not answer polls about "BGG politics" on the grounds that my answers may be used against me. ninja


Aren`t these anonymous? I cannot see who did what, and I created the poll. laugh

BTW, I didn`t answer this poll by myself, but this is fre speech region, Drew, didn`t you know? It is all about the tone. I stated a lot of opinions here about almost anything, but never got a mail from an admin or something like that, neither was I suspended or banned or whatever.

So, c`mon, check the ones closest to your point of view.
 
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Karl Rainer
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This is not a poll, this is an opionion piece, with highly biased choices. Here are my serious responses, which CANNONT be covered by your arbitrary answers:

1) I fail to see how leaving involves discussing. In the absence of the people who go off in a huff, I believe that the discussion is closed.

2) Transparency is a delicate issue, contrasting right-to-know with right-to-privacy. In addition, there will always be "rules lawyers" who stretch any written policy requiring even more written rules. A certain amount of faith must be placed in the hands of the moderators and administrator to handle the unpredictable in a sensitive way, and I think transparency is well handled at BGG.

3) More adequacy??? What does that mean? I am not so worried about humour in responses as I am about quick reactions if it is miscommunicated or misunderstood. I think on the whole admins and moderators respond quite well amd make an extra effort to communicate warnings, decisions and reasons.

4) Adblock was also offered. I think that is a fine balance.

5) It's not the content, it's the tone. BGG demands and enforces civility. An abusive, demeaning and vitriolic complaint about ice-cream would be deleted as quickly as one about BGG politics. A non-issue in my mind.


6) What about complaints about slanted polls containing the word "Barnes" ? You are making their point through postings like this.


Quote:
I am no professional poll-maker , just looking for some ideas about my own opinions and - you know, a way out of my confusion.



....just looking for a way to fan the flames, in my opinion. Play nice please. A poll is the wrong, wrong, wrong way to post your opinions: If you want to really find out what we think ABOUT YOUR OPINIONS, give us the choices appropriate to real responses.
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Daniel Danzer
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krainer wrote:
A poll is the wrong, wrong, wrong way to post your opinions: If you want to really find out what we think ABOUT YOUR OPINIONS, give us the choices appropriate to real responses.


Well, you did post your opinions here. I used the poll as a first overview and a start for further discussions, if wanted.

I cannot see any regulations or logical reasons for using a poll in a right or wrong way. It is a tool among others.

Even the "Pat Hirtle / Agricola" - poll was a nice using of this tool.

Thanks for sharing your point of view!

 
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duchamp wrote:
I cannot see any regulations or logical reasons for using a poll in a right or wrong way.


The logical reason for using a poll in the right way is so you'll get real answers to real questions. What you have here is the illusion of answers to biased opinions. Your poll tells us nothing except that you, yourself, are biased and wish that others were too.
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Bill Eldard
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duchamp wrote:
THIS IS NO COMPLAINT. . . .


Of course it is. It comes through in the wording of questions/issues.

Obviously, you (or someone) will use any favorable results to persuade the owner/admins that they need to change their policies/practices.

But such unscientific polls don't produce useful data, and are generally ignored.

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Eldard wrote:
Obviously, you (or someone) will use any favorable results to persuade the owner/admins that they need to change their policies/practices.

Nope.

duchamp wrote:
I created a poll to see the opinions of some other users about some issues bothering me.

I sure don`t want to persuade anybody by this poll to do anything. I am not that naive.

Eldard wrote:

But such unscientific polls don't produce useful data, and are generally ignored.


Ignored or not, the voters don`t reflect my own opinion at all, and I see more clearly as before that I am part of a minority in many respects so far. Useful data for me, if the votes will not change "dramatically".
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joebelanger wrote:
You're Doing it Wrong


rynelf wrote:
You're Doing it Wrong


Frankenfletch wrote:
You're Doing it Wrong


pdclose wrote:
You're Doing it Wrong


uethym wrote:
You're Doing it Wrong


krainer wrote:
You're Doing it Wrong


pdclose wrote:
You're Doing it Wrong x2


eldard wrote:
You're Doing it Wrong
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I understand that Duchamp's poll is not the most rigorously constructed and does not offer a sufficiently wide range of responses to these questions, but it does seem to be an effort made in good faith towards a personal end. Cut him some slack.
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Rik Van Horn
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Damn. I kept looking for the "I don't understand the question" answers, but couldn't find them.
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Paul Szilagyi
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What seems to me to be the case, and this is giving the man as much credit as I can, is that Duchamp wrote something which amounted to
'I'm concerned. I don't think this is right, and I think we're suffering for it.'

This statement, while sincere, made very little impact. Consequently, his concern was deepened. He posted again: 'I'm concerned; we're suffering a lot. You guys aren't listening.' The increasingly alarmist tone of which post caused it to be arbitrarily moved to a different category. This was probably a bad move by whoever did it, because the result has been an ever-increasing body of protesting posts. Of which this poll is but one.

At this point, we're into 'I demand to be heard!' territory, and the simple fact is that Duchamp's concern was both heard and considered from the beginning. The net effect of which was of someone, somewhere shrugging their shoulders because you can't please everyone.

Further attempts are bringing diminishing returns, which is bad because there was not a whole lot of perceptible return on investment in the first place, from Duchamp's point of view.
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ZeroZilla wrote:
What seems to me to be the case, and this is giving the man as much credit as I can, is that Duchamp wrote something which amounted to
'I'm concerned. I don't think this is right, and I think we're suffering for it.'

This statement, while sincere, made very little impact. Consequently, his concern was deepened. He posted again: 'I'm concerned; we're suffering a lot. You guys aren't listening.' The increasingly alarmist tone of which post caused it to be arbitrarily moved to a different category. This was probably a bad move by whoever did it, because the result has been an ever-increasing body of protesting posts. Of which this poll is but one.

Although this is well observed, it is not only me, to whom this happened, and some users left because of similar incidents.
The whole "ignoring" attitude you describe is part of the "politics" and I wondered, how much other users care about. So, I created this poll.

91 users answered so far, and the votes give me more calmness. I don`t want to care too much for things a vast majority does not or has a standpoint far away from mine. This gives me a clearer view about my own position in BGG-"city". It is neither being a "court jester", nor being a "partisan". My self-assessment is not so exagerrated, that I would
a) delete my account with all my contributions,
b) fight a hopeless "war" posting "concerned" threads on and on or
c) hijack every thread to shout out my point of view in a more and more inadequate tone, so I finally get banned and be proud of this.

I will continue to contribute to game-related stuff more well-balanced and step back from too much "disputability". I wanted to keep a discussion going on about issues I considered disturbing, but I realize more and more, that my time and energy is better used somewhere else.

Thanks everybody for your thoughtful remarks. thumbsup
I am nonetheless curious about the developing votes above.
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duchamp wrote:
Although this is well observed, it is not only me, to whom this happened, and some users left because of similar incidents.


Often people identify with others not for the battle but because of the struggle. Lajos, for example, clearly identified with something I wrote so much that he quoted it in a post that pushed his own view on a topic. The problem is, I am at the polar opposite of that particular view. He didn't consult me before quoting my post, he just made an assumption based on a feeling of identification. He felt that what I said backed him up and he was wrong in that case.

Your poll simply tells you that the majority of those who bothered to answer it (and understood the questions) don't hold your opinions. It doesn't say that your opinions aren't valid, or useful, or how they could be used to help mold policy, it just says they are not "popular". That doesn't mean your opinions should be ignored, or even are being ignored, it just tells you what you already know: you will most likely meet resistance because your views are not among the majority.

duchamp wrote:
I will continue to contribute to game-related stuff more well-balanced and step back from too much "disputability".


I'm glad to hear you are planning to stay, and I hope you won't ever give up raising awareness on issues. If you are less focused on the result I think you will find the communication goes easier and folks are more receptive to what you have to say.

And, of course, talking about games is always #1!
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pdclose wrote:
Your poll simply tells you that the majority of those who bothered to answer it (and understood the questions) don't hold your opinions. It doesn't say that your opinions aren't valid, or useful, or how they could be used to help mold policy, it just says they are not "popular". That doesn't mean your opinions should be ignored, or even are being ignored, it just tells you what you already know: you will most likely meet resistance because your views are not among the majority.


I will not change my opinions because of this for sure.

That they were and are ignored, is obvious, considering the reactions (or the lack of any) to many other threads and posts.

I am glad to have virtually "met" a dozen people here sharing quite a lot of my idiosyncratic thinking. A dozen, not more. Considering, the votes of my poll are even not at all representative (the most people, caring least for these issues, not even voting), it was kind of a last sign for me to stop trying to "change" anything here towards any improvement (what I think of being an improvement, of course).

It just doesn`t make any sense, that`s all.
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Teh Slipperboy
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I didn't vote not because I don't care, but because I don't see answers that fit my opinions very well.
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Simon Lundström
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To clarify:

Quote:
Should the leaving of some well-known users make us think about some things they were trying to discuss, or not?

Yep, by all means. Obviously they were upset about something. They might not be correct or realistic, but yeah, we should always think.

Quote:
There is some non-transparency concerning vanishing or moved threads or geeklists, banned users, admin decisions, whatever. What do you think about this?

A small note to say what the admins decided would be nice. Deleted post should leave some trace [This post was deleted by the user/by an admin [Name of Admin]] would be nice.

Quote:
How about "funny" or disrespectful posts by admins in threads about serious issues?

I find this the most upsetting of all, probably as Pat did. I fully respect that this is home-made site, but it's much more than just a simple home page now. I've felt several of the admin responses to be unprofessional in this matter. As an admin, I believe one should be neutral, always courteous, open about one's decisions and never late to apologize for mistakes made. At least, that's how I act when I am set as an admin, which has happened as some occasions. And that hasn't always been the case with the admins here, and that is saddening.

Quote:
"Contextual ads" were added even on top of each user`s profile (on top of mine, there appear ads for "Duchamp" shirts or ties and more stuff like that) – without informing the users about it or giving them any possibility to do something about it. Questionable?

I don't care. I can shut the ads off.

Quote:
I have a growing feeling, that the attitude of the "BGG-authorities" seems a bit similar to the one of the IOC: We want a clean surface, statements about the BGG-"politics" are rather made invisible or ignored.

I don't share that impression. I have the impression that the attitude of the BGG authorities is to keep problems off the site as muh as possible, and that the edge is a bit too rough, a bit too arbitrary and that they haven't realised the necessity of being consistent and that they instead get angry (tired and fed up?) when somebody points out that they're inconsistent.

Quote:
Any thread concerning bans or containing the Name "Barnes" is considered a "complaint", regardless of the real content or discussion of this thread. How about that?

I don't think this is the case.
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