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Subject: Extra battle line for Canada? rss

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Erik D
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So the rules state the purple general is counted as an extra battle line when you're invading territories controlled by another player. How about Canada then? The purple general is on the same line as the regular general. Do these count as separate battle lines (put on the same line due to space) or does the purple general make it a 2-general battle line?

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Dan Blum
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It's separate. The rules say the circular general is an extra line, period. There is no exception for Canada. The graphic treatment of the front lines could certainly be better (had I done it the boxes in each line would be joined).
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Paul DeStefano
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Good detail to notice.

In our games it hasn't come up.
 
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Kane Klenko
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I noticed that the first time we played too. I assume it's just poor placement...we play that it's a separate battle line, just like the other circles.
 
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Todd Goff
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Remember, the extra "head" is only used when you attempt to take a continent from another player.
 
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Alfred
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erak wrote:
...or does the purple general make it a 2-general battle line?
My gut feeling here is that the placement is intentional: it becomes a double-general line.

I'm pretty sure herr Knizia would have come up with another graphical presentation if it wasn't a double. I'll go with the graphics rather than a possible error in translation or at least inexact wording by the editor.
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Christopher Dearlove
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Der Das wrote:
I'm pretty sure herr Knizia would have come up with another graphical presentation if it wasn't a double.


That sort of graphical design issue is not one that a games designer, even Reiner Knizia, gets to control. (Obvious exception being self-publishers.) If they did, do you think Zombiegeddon would have made it into print with its graphics?
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Alfred
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Dearlove wrote:
That sort of graphical design issue is not one that a games designer, even Reiner Knizia, gets to control. (Obvious exception being self-publishers.) If they did, do you think Zombiegeddon would have made it into print with its graphics?
I can't comment on Zombiegeddon. But if layout is interwoven with game mechanics, then it has to be (or it may break the game). Where it is all window dressing, it doesn't have to be as you say, of course.

In case of herr Knizia, I have seen prototypes of his LotR game and the final print matches those very closely. With his status as a designer, I wouldn't be surprised if he has the last word on layout design with many publishers.

Anyway, to be sure about the issue with Risk Exp., he would be the person to ask.
Until then, I'd rather go with the logics of the layout than the text in the rules. I feel the mentioning of "extra line" is a general remark that doesn't address the specific case of the Canada card.
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Christopher Dearlove
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Der Das wrote:
In case of herr Knizia, I have seen prototypes of his LotR game and the final print matches those very closely. With his status as a designer, I wouldn't be surprised if he has the last word on layout design with many publishers.


I'm reasonably sure that is not the case, though I must admit I've not asked him. Where the game matches the prototype it is probably because the publisher (or the publisher's art director) saw a good thing and copied it. You may not know Zombiegeddon, but it's a clear example that his lead may be ignored (and I have seen the prototype for that).

Quote:
Anyway, to be sure about the issue with Risk Exp., he would be the person to ask.


I could, but I don't see the need.

Quote:
Until then, I'd rather go with the logics of the layout than the text in the rules. I feel the mentioning of "extra line" is a general remark that doesn't address the specific case of the Canada card.


I am all but certain you are wrong here. First, rules are generally what matters. But more importantly, I've seen Reiner's style close up, and the idea of him introducing a special rule to handle the extra general on one card only is completely at odds with his whole design philosophy. He even does his best to avoid having to have special conditions for different numbers of players, though sometimes he can't avoid it.
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Alfred
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Dearlove wrote:
I am all but certain you are wrong here. First, rules are generally what matters. But more importantly, I've seen Reiner's style close up, and the idea of him introducing a special rule to handle the extra general on one card only is completely at odds with his whole design philosophy. He even does his best to avoid having to have special conditions for different numbers of players, though sometimes he can't avoid it.
You are right about his design philosophy. Which is exactly what makes this an odd matter, where rules clash with presentational logics (the icon being on a single battle line*).

Question is if there needs an extra rule to be introduced here. I don't think so, I think the confusion is because of inexact formulation of the one rule.
Basically there shouldn't be the need to mention "battle line" and "extra general" in one single sentence. These don't need to be tied together since the main rules are clear enough.

One could ask what came first, final layout/design or final rules.

I haven't made any calculations but at a glance, either interpretation doesn't look like a game breaker. The card fits nicely between the other two either way.


EDIT
*) I just noticed that it stands a bit further apart from the other icon than is the case on other battle lines. Looks like this detail kills my theory of presentational logics.
meeple


(And thanks for the discussion.)
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Christopher Dearlove
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Der Das wrote:
Dearlove wrote:
I am all but certain you are wrong here. First, rules are generally what matters. But more importantly, I've seen Reiner's style close up, and the idea of him introducing a special rule to handle the extra general on one card only is completely at odds with his whole design philosophy. He even does his best to avoid having to have special conditions for different numbers of players, though sometimes he can't avoid it.
You are right about his design philosophy. Which is exactly what makes this an odd matter, where rules clash with presentational logics (the icon being on a single battle line*).


Just assume that the publishers used less than ideal graphics, without consultation, and all is clear. I don't know that to be true, but if I were a gambler I'd make a modest wager on that being the case.
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Alex N
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Der Das wrote:


In case of herr Knizia, With his status as a designer, I wouldn't be surprised if he has the last word on layout design with many publishers.



When it comes to game design and layout, the publisher calls the shot. He's the one putting up the capital, not Herr Knizia. It's true all publishers will listen to their designers' preferences, but it's not up to them.

A good example of this is Keltis. Knizia said he preferred the design of Lost Cities: The Board Game but Kosmos changed his rules and the game's theme which is why it was so different than his original Lost Cities. Once Keltis won the SdJ who was he to complain?

Everyone is entitled to their opinions but the publisher always rules.
 
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