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Subject: Wooden Hut Extension and family growth rss

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CaroleM
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We need clarification on the Wooden Hut Extension minor improvement. Can this be used as the minor improvement action of the "After family growth also one minor improvement" if you don't currently have enough room for the family growth? Obviously you'd have enough room after using the improvement, but before doing the "also 1 minor improvement" you don't have room for the new family member. The rules seem pretty clear "Players must have room for offspring in their home before they can use this action" but a friend of ours thought the whole purpose of this card was to use it in this scenario. Thanks.
 
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1603-1714
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Nope, the card can't be used for this purpose.

However, if you had an extra room and took the family growth then minor improvement action, you could use the card and build another room for another family expansion. As you mentioned, the rules are pretty clear here, both about the family growth requirement and about the order of the actions from this space.
 
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Vinny Tee
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No. Your friend was wrong. I actually thought about that in my first game and was quickly shot down.

You can't use the action unless you have the room for family growth. And, you can only do the minor improvement if you have completed the family growth action first.

I believe this was discussed on another thread somewhere.

Just beat out by Mr. Griggs. What he said.
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Jeff Thornsen
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Short answer: No, you can't.

Like you said, you need to already have enough room in your house in order to take the Family Growth action.

The purpose of the card is to let you expand your house without having to use the build rooms action (for example, by taking the Start Player space instead). I'm not sure what the cost on the card is, but if it's cheaper than a normal wooden room then that is also a good reason to use it instead of the normal Build Rooms action.

Edit: Rats, beaten twice!
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1603-1714
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tombstone007 wrote:
Just beat out by Mr. Griggs. What he said.

Faranim wrote:
Edit: Rats, beaten twice!

Nice to win one of these once in a while! You've sure got to be fast when responding to Agricola questions.
 
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Branko K.
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This is a fine example where the word After actually becomes useful.

The rules state that you MUST perform the first action while the second is optional. However, the word AFTER specifically states the first action is to be performed before the second, optional one. Put those two together and there's really no issue.

However we had a similar problem which is not so easily solved. Friend had a Minor Improvement "Lasso" which states that you can place two people immediately one after another if one of them uses an action space which gives you animals. He used this to collect sheep and build fences the same turn. Another friend argued that even though he got to put two people together, he essentially HAD to pick up the sheep first and THEN build fences (because otherwise Lasso wouldn't be triggered), so he couldn't place those sheep in a newly fenced pasture. In the end we allowed him to do so, but I'm still not sure what would be the "official" ruling on that issue.
 
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David Fair
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baba44713 wrote:
However we had a similar problem which is not so easily solved. Friend had a Minor Improvement "Lasso" which states that you can place two people immediately one after another if one of them uses an action space which gives you animals. He used this to collect sheep and build fences the same turn. Another friend argued that even though he got to put two people together, he essentially HAD to pick up the sheep first and THEN build fences (because otherwise Lasso wouldn't be triggered), so he couldn't place those sheep in a newly fenced pasture. In the end we allowed him to do so, but I'm still not sure what would be the "official" ruling on that issue.

I'm not official, but NO, this would not be allowed. First take the sheep, then place another family member... Oh look, all your sheep ran away.
 
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Mark McEvoy
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IMHO it greatly depends on the actual wording on the card (which I do not know, it was generally paraphrased above).

If it were worded "After you place a family member that results in the taking of one or more animals, you may immediately place another family member", I'd answer "no, your sheep flee before the fences are built".

If it were worded "You may place a second family member immediately following your normal family member placement, provided the second family member's action results in the taking of one or more animals", I'd answer "yes, the fences are up before the sheep arrive".


If it's worded somewhere in between, it probably should be reworded or clarified to be equivalent to one or the other of the above (or else specifically clarified to be at the player's discretion if he/she is allowed to choose the order).
 
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Eugene van der Pijll
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thatmarkguy wrote:
IMHO it greatly depends on the actual wording on the card (which I do not know, it was generally paraphrased above).

Du kannst 2 Personen in direkter Folge einsetzen, wenn mindestens eine davon eines der Aktionsfelder ,,Wildschwein``, ,,Rind`` oder ,,Schaf`` nutzt.

You can place 2 people in direct order, when at least one of them uses the action spaces Boar, Cattle, or Sheep.

"At least one of them" leaves the option open that it is the second person that takes the sheep. I don't think that this is a card that is "triggered" by an action; it is a card that a player can choose to use; in this case: a player can choose to use this card to take sheep after he's played one of his family members.
 
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Branko K.
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The actual card text:

"You can place two people immediately after one
another, if at least one of them uses the “1 Wild
Boar”, “1 Cattle” or “1 Sheep” action space."


I don't like it because it "brakes" the rules in an extremely inelegant way. If the card stated that when you put a family member on an animal space you can immediately put another family member, it would be pretty clear and non-problematic. However, the "trigger" in this case is vague, because placing a family member on some other action space has effectively ended the player's turn, and he now needs to act out of turn to place the other member on an animal space to trigger the Minor Improvement.





 
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Eugene van der Pijll
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baba44713 wrote:
However, the "trigger" in this case is vague, because placing a family member on some other action space has effectively ended the player's turn, and he now needs to act out of turn to place the other member on an animal space to trigger the Minor Improvement.

So? There are lots of cards that can be used out of turn; the Lasso is not an exception. Many cards in the interactive do that. The Taster works in almost the same way as the Lasso.

There are also lots of cards that have a vague trigger: to use e.g. the fireplace, you just announce "I want to use my fireplace". Normal play stops, while you convert your sheep into sausages. It works the same way with the Lasso: just announce at the start of the next player's turn: "I want to use my Lasso". Normal play stops, you take animals, play continues.
 
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Branko K.
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Yes, but Lasso can lead to some "uncomfortable" situations, because it is not defined whether the player has to "announce" during his turn he is using it or he just has to plomp his family chits down more quickly then the player after him.

And to get back to the original issue I raised, my friend actually put one family member on the sheep first, and then the other on the fences, which triggered the aforementioned discussion. His argument was that it's irrelevant which chit he put down first since they should be considered as "played at the same time", and he didn't put the one on fences first because he knew the next player waited for sheep and he just wanted to show his Lasso-using more clearly, so not to start a "race" between him and the next player of "who will place the chit first". In retrospect, he should have just stated he was using the Lasso and take the Fences and then the Sheep, but it's easier to see it now then it was then, during the actual game.
 
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Mark McEvoy
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baba44713 wrote:
Yes, but Lasso can lead to some "uncomfortable" situations, because it is not defined whether the player has to "announce" during his turn he is using it or he just has to plomp his family chits down more quickly then the player after him.


In what strategy game designed for people over age eight is there ever a 'race' like the one you describe?

Now that I've seen the wording, it seems pretty clear how it should be handled: announce you're using it in advance and then use it. It's not like anything could have changed and surprised you after your first action that suddenly made it viable to use the second one.

But if it so happens that you didn't announce it in advance but only remember just after your first placement that you intended to use it, any reasonable play group would give you the leniency to restate your turn action and reorder your chits ("Ah, sorry, of course the intent is that I played the fences first, duh, brain fart on me"). If your opponents are apt to make a major fuss about this (correcting your own error within an instant and before anyone else has acted), I suggest finding different opponents.
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Branko K.
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First of all, if you re-read my post, you will see it was my friend, not me.

Second of all, newcomers to the game aren't really accustomed to all the nuances of the game - since the card doesn't tell the player directly to "announce" the action of using it, it's pretty hard to tell instantly you're supposed to do that. Consequently, if the player DOESN'T announce it (perfectly understandable, since it was the first time EVERYONE of us has seen that card in play), then placing of the chits DOES boil down to a race, especially if the game is played quickly to kill the downtime (which I like). If the player didn't announce the use of Lasso, and the next player already collected all the sheep, it's not right for the previous player to say "Hey, I wanted to do that, and.. look, I was actually able to do that, so give me back my sheep." But even that is not what happened, the question was the order of the actions he chose to take and the question whether they should have been performed at the same time, or one after another (which the card actually implied).

AND it wasn't a "major fuss", it was just a good old-fashioned civilized issue of interpreting the rules, I don't think there's a gaming group where something like that doesn't arise every once in a while; I see no reason for finding different people just because we stop and consider the way things in a game should work rule from time to time.
 
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Matthew Watson
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baba44713 wrote:
This is a fine example where the word After actually becomes useful.


That's a very good point - and one that reveals as not so good my suggestion a few weeks ago that it should say "Must" and "May" instead of "After" and "Also".
 
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