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Origins: How We Became Human» Forums » Rules

Subject: Kill player on the first turn? rss

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Jeff Sumner
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So in the 5 player game, it is possible to kill two of the players before they even get a turn?
Really ruins the enjoyment for those two players become slaves before they even do anything. But I didn't see anything in the rules to prevent it... are you allowed to kill a player before they even get their first turn?

Also, if you are playing this game... please look at the variant rules before playing for the first time. In particular the livestock raid seems critical to me. We had a player doing badly, couldn't get energy one and was hopelessly far behind by the time his 11th domestication role finally worked. Would have greatly helped his enjoyment if he could have gotten that critical energy one.
 
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Bob Slaughter
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jeffles2 wrote:
So in the 5 player game, it is possible to kill two of the players before they even get a turn?
Really ruins the enjoyment for those two players become slaves before they even do anything. But I didn't see anything in the rules to prevent it... are you allowed to kill a player before they even get their first turn?


Yes, you can, but if you read the FAQ, you find many reasons you shouldn't. It's very easy to come out of slavery (they take the spaces you abandon in Chaos), and start mostly with all your advances. Unlike many other Civ-like games, warfare is typically a break-even or worse proposition in Origins.

Quote:
Also, if you are playing this game... please look at the variant rules before playing for the first time. In particular the livestock raid seems critical to me. We had a player doing badly, couldn't get energy one and was hopelessly far behind by the time his 11th domestication role finally worked. Would have greatly helped his enjoyment if he could have gotten that critical energy one.


I agree that most if not all the variant rules (especially the "recommended" ones) should be used.
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Rob Lawrence
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Hi Guys, After several games I have become uncomfortable with the slavery rules because in essence it allows the enslavement of a game player to another game player rather than simulating the enslavement of a human population to another human population.

I believe the rules and actions for "guest workers" more accurately simulates slavery and those rules adequate enough, so that I do not use the slavery rules any more.

I have some alternative rules for slavery and mulligan rules in the variant section under the post "Updated Variant rules"

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/2609218

Best Regards, Rob Lawrence
 
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Mark Taraba
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rlawrence66 wrote:
Hi Guys, After several games I have become uncomfortable with the slavery rules because in essence it allows the enslavement of a game player to another game player rather than simulating the enslavement of a human population to another human population.


But a game player is suppose to be a human population... so I don't see what the issue is. Unless you're saying something like African enslavement didn't take everyone from the continent of Africa to become slaves to another race. I believe the back of the rule book actually says that it's modeled after the historical Hebrew enslavement.
 
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Rob Lawrence
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Hi Mark,

I guess my falling out over the slavery rules primarily is that slavery seems to be covered in the "guest worker" rules and it has it own set od special rules.

This seems to give slavery extra attention when other equally or more complex subjects in the game such as brain developement, cultural diffusion, domestication, etc do not have a simialr treatment.

In contrast those other game aspects are simulated well and fit in with the scope and scale of the game. The slavery rules for me do not fit within the scope and scale of the game they seem to add a level of complexity that may be better fit for a game of a less grand scale and time frame.

In game terms a player could be enslaved for many turns or potentially for the entire game. For me that really does mot fit what each player is supposed to be representing. The slavery rules were modeled after the Hebrews captiity in Egypt but in game terms the players are not just representing a single ethnicity or religion so the model does not fit at the games scale.

However, the "guest worker" rules seems to simulate slavery at the games scale appropriately. As far as game play is concerned the "guest worker" rules allow for a better chances for the "guest workers" to be returned to a player as well a the creation of other "guest workers". The "guest workers" function is also purely economic. This seems to model the nature of slavery throughout history well.

For game play, the game player who does get enslaved does not have a very positive experience and may feel trapped by a legalistic "rules loophole".

In think the slavey rules are, as far as rules are concerned, are quite clever and show the same depth of knowledge that Phil brought to this game but I believe these are rules are overkill when the much simpiler and more fluid "guest worker" rules work just fine.

Best Regards, Rob Lawrence
 
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Mark Taraba
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Quote:
For game play, the game player who does get enslaved does not have a very positive experience and may feel trapped by a legalistic "rules loophole".


I'm not really looking to get in to a huge discussion here about the subject. I just wanted to comment that I have caused myself to be enslaved to another player because it was a better play so it can't be as bad as you're making it out to be. Your changes sound like you want to take that option away because you're assuming that every player is going to be miserable in all situations if they're enslaved. You can play by any house rules that you like, but I'm don't see a need to change these rules for my own games.

I'm not sure what "does not have a very positive experience" means. They don't have interesting decisions to make on their turn? The word "slavery" sounds bad and the player assumes that they shouldn't be in that situation? There's certainly positive things that happen to you during that time. You immediately jump up in your footprint and you get the benefit of any advancements that come along later to your master. You also get all the locations that your master loses when going in to chaos.
 
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Daniel Corban
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If this game were more popular, Rob's post would have made this thread 5 pages long by now.
 
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Rob Lawrence
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Hi Dan,

It is too bad that Origins is not as popular as it could be. I really like the game. It has first rate components and a compelling theme.

I also think that the games basic mechanics are brilliant. The use of tokens in particular is very elegant, like how they interplay with the game activities: world map, infrastructure, brain map, elder pool, innovation track, population track. I also like the variety and power (but not over power) of the innovation actions, the population actions, and the interplay with the era cards.

Those mechanics in particular in era 1 really make the game shine. The game experience in era 1 and to a lesser extent in era 2 is the most captivating, with the player seeming to be in a struggle not only against other players but actually in a struggle against nature for human survival.

It has been the easiest also to interest other players, when playing that early part of the game. The later eras are fun, just not as much and the theme sort of wears off by then, usually when a run-away leader emerges.

The sort of games I have experienced in the later eras have come in two flavors multi-player solo and global genocidal war. With the players footprints nudging the game in either direction. But once one of the directions has been reached it usually sets the tone for the remainder of the game.

I have come up with a number of rules variants and I am working on some more advanced rules. The motive for these rules has come from the rules clunkers that I believe to be in the are in the original rules set. Those clunkers, to me, seem to have loopholes in them or are not consistent. They also, for me, reduce the dynamism and fluidity that exist in the games basic mechanics.

I do understand that Phil Eklund was going for a simulation and he has done a remarkable job at that. I hope that a rules re-working is in order though based upon the feed back that has been generated so far and then Origins will have the wider popularity it deserves.

Best Regards, Rob Lawrence

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