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Battlefield Evolution: World at War» Forums » General

Subject: Tigers faster than Shermans rss

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Conrad Brunner

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Subject: Understanding the ratings
I want to like this game. I mean, I really want to like this game. But I have a hard time understanding how Mongoose went about calculating its ratings systems and won't play regularly until some answers are forthcoming.

Consider: the German Tigers, which have a moment of 4" and tracks of 8". This means using two move actions, the Tigers can cover eight inches. Using a ready action and a combined move/tracks action, the Tiger can cover 12 inches. Shermans, which were in reality much faster, have a move of 3" and tracks of 7" meaning they can cover 6" with two moves and 10" with a ready/move combination.

This is the kind of fundamental error that destroys a game. Though the Tiger's gun is slightly more powerful (D10+4) than the Sherman's (D10+2), it's not exactly a prohibitive advantage in firepower. I'm not a specs wonk, but I do expect a WWII minis game to reflect at least the general characteristics of the units accurately.

The BFE rules system is very solid and has great potential. But if they get something as obvious as the speed disadvantage of the Tiger wrong, you can't help but wonder how many other inaccuracies are hidden in their ratings.



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According to a couple of online sources I just Googled (left as an exercise for the reader), the Tiger tank reportedly went the same speed as the Sherman, and in some cases slightly faster.

Now, for a miniatures game, I don't know how big a 2" movement difference is in terms of net advantage, but I expect the game designers did this for a reason that might go beyond simple quantitative issues such as relative speed, but also reflect some of the qualitative advantages the Tiger had over the Sherman.
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Kevin Duke
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Not ever. Not with a tailwind. Not even downhill-- unless it's a steep slope downhill.

No way the Tiger is faster than a Sherman-- not on level ground and perfect conditions.

If the game makes an average allowance for something less than pool table flatness, the difference should be even larger.

As to the Tiger's 88 being only slightly better than the Sherman's gun, I have to ask "which gun?" I could see the 88 being just a little better than the American 76 or British 17lber. Otherwise, the difference should be significant.

However, the all the Shermans have advantages when it comes to tracking targets/turning the turret.

I'm with the OP on this one. That's the sort of thing that would stop a game cold for me.
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Eric Larson
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This is the advantage that fantasy games have over "real life" war games. No one can every say "That's not true or correct".

If you want a really historically accurate game, they are available. There might be a huge lack of opponents and they take weeks to play, but these games do exist.
 
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Peter Bogdasarian
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There are historically accurate games which play plenty fast. Just a matter of investing the effort to make the numbers right the first time round.
 
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Conrad Brunner

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The Tiger's top speed was slightly faster than the Sherman's. ... however, the Tiger's acceleration was much, much slower. So was its turning speed. The Sherman, in all of its iterations, was a much more nimble tank than the Tiger by any statistical measure.
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Timothy Burke
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I bought the rules just to check out what was the intent. This plays much like Flames of War: The World War II Miniatures Game within an unrealistic army list setting. The failure of FOW to depict historic actions led me to the 15mm rules I Ain't Been Shot, Mum and it's 28mm brother Troops, Weapons & Tactics. While FOW was designed for the most part to sell miniatures I don't see Mongoose attempting the same marketing yet. TW&T is less vehicle dependent and more strictly a platoon level infantry game. Great fun at a lower figure cost. I must point out that the main reason I got Battlefield Evolution was the fact I could play with the figures I already had. One of the responders to your query hit it right on the head calling it a fantasy game.

Tim
(edited for lousy grammar)
 
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Joe Reil
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Engineer Dad wrote:
If you want a really historically accurate game, they are available. There might be a huge lack of opponents and they take weeks to play, but these games do exist.


Why would making the Tiger slower add hours (or weeks!) to the game time, or make opponents harder to find?

Adding lots of detail can bog things down, but what you're talking about is not the level of detail, but a detail that was done incorrectly. In this case, the correct detail would not add anything to the complexity of the game.

Just playing Devil's Advocate... I'm not a realism-hound, I like M44 a lot, for instance. Still, in general for a historical game, things should be as realistic as reasonably possible within the limits of the system (a lot of the unrealistic/inaccurrate elements of M44 for instance, are a direct result of the fact that it's an undetailed and abstract representation of combat).
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