Russell InGA
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Both the Sem. 75/18 and the PzIVE have Antitank values of 4-X. This is the same as the PzIIIJ which with the 5cm high velocity gun was the best tank killer on the German side.

Both of these AFVs are armed with short barreled 75mm guns. The Italian 75mm artillery piece rates only a 2-X AT value. The guns in the AFVs are basically the same as the Italian artillery piece. So why the discrepancy?

Both of the AFVs have HEAT (high explosive anti-tank - [shape charged]) rounds available to give these AFVs some anti-AFV potential. In Advanced Squad Leader these rounds are not available until the middle of 1942. The AT value of 4 is justified if it assumed that these two AFVs have HEAT rounds available. In ASL HEAT is not available to the Germans until May 1942 and to the Italians until Sep. 1942.

The original Tobruk: Tank Battles in North Africa 1942 does not mention HEAT rounds. (And if there was ever a game that tried to get everything right down to the number of rounds carried it was Tobruk.) Ironically in Tobruk the Semoventi gun is slightly more effective than the PzIVE gun.

------------------------------------------------

I take the ASL information as pretty authoritative. I am inclined to play that these two AFVs have an AT value of 2-X during the scenarios of AK.

-------------------------------------------------

Please see here for AP comment on this:

http://www.avalanchepress.com/PzKwIV.php

Quote:

... Even with the short 75mm L24 cannon, the PzKw IV could destroy enemy tanks using hollow-charge rounds. These became available in the summer of 1941 in both Russia and North Africa. As almost all Panzer Grenadier scenarios issued to date that include PzKw IV tanks take place after this superior anti-tank ammunition became available, the PzKw IVE has a misleadingly high anti-tank value of 4, reflecting use of this round. Future games based on the Polish, French and Balkan campaigns of 1939 through 1941 will show the tank with a much lower anti-tank value.

...
 
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nick P
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Yes, I dare say you are right. I don't think it is a big deal to change what you feel with this game. I like your various observations here and elsewhere.
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Russell InGA
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nickp wrote:
Yes, I dare say you are right. I don't think it is a big deal to change what you feel with this game. I like your various observations here and elsewhere.


Thanks for the complement!

(Yes I gave you a tip for it!!)
 
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Keith Plymale
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This was all talked about before France 1940 came out and you would expect the AT value to go down. While the armor value did which is historically correct the AT value stayed at a 4-X on the Pz IVA, D and E. Unfortunately my counters are cut out but I did some sorting. If anybody has the 1940 sheets or scans of those double check me please.

Edit: I just checked PG: HQ and they show the same values I entered above.

 
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Russell InGA
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Yeah... I was disappointed too... They didn't honor what they had said they were going to do! gulpyuksoblue

I have a bag in my communal PG box for PzIVs and Semoventi that have half stickered to the lower value.
 
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Ethan McKinney
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rules_heretic wrote:
In ASL HEAT is not available to the Germans until May 1942 and to the Italians until Sep. 1942.


Ariete had HEAT ("Effeto Pronto") rounds for its 75/27 guns at Bir-el-Gobi on 19 November 1941. The rounds didn't become widely available to Italian forces in North Africa until January 1942.

German HEAT production started well before Spring 1942. In this case, ASL seems to be dead wrong.
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nick P
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ASL dead wrong? Surely an impossibility!
 
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Ethan McKinney
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This was just posted: http://tankarchives.blogspot.com/2013/09/spring-heat.html

" According to the latest information, the Germans allegedly have a shell capable of burning through armour, but no such shells were found among captured trophies. On March 31st, a HEAT shell was found for the German 76 mm gun, which, according to latest information, also exists for the 75 mm infantry gun.
The shell is currently being examined by the Artkom GAU and NII-6.
In order to increase the armour piercing power of our 76 mm regimental gun, it is reasonable to finish development of a HEAT shell for it."
--From March (?) 1942 (?)

"Franz Halder's diary also mentions HEAT shells."

“December 22nd, 1941. 184th day of the war.

Forces of the south flank of the 4th army, south-east of Kaluga, are encircled by the enemy, who is also advancing on Tarusy. The condition on this section of the front is grave. It is not known when this crisis can be resolved. Regardless, the order to retreat was not given. The only order given was on the use of HEAT shells. {349}

{349} Hitler still disallowed use of these new shells”

“January 11th, 1942 (Sunday). 204th day of the war.

Hitler: hold Merdyn and cover the breach in the north. Attempt to do so before the front at Merdyn wavers. Move forces from the rear. Advance with the 9th army to cover the breach at Rzhev. There is no time for preparations of defensive positions. Any time we manage to win is to be used to cover breaches in our lines. Holding Suhinichi takes priority. Should we use shells with the red tip? {407} A counterattack from the south still remains our goal.

{407} Those were the markings of a HEAT artillery shell.”
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Ethan McKinney
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Another interesting bit:

"The results are quite effective, but due to the low amount of APCR and HEAT shells encountered in the field, efforts to screen T-34s were short-lived. Losses due to HEAT were very small: none at all in most of 1942, less than 2% over the winter between 1942 and 1943, and less than 7% in 1943. In 1944, no tanks were lost to HEAT shells from other tanks. Panzerfausts and Panzerschrecks were responsible for 5% of all tank losses that year. Against such portable HEAT weapons, mesh screens were developed. These screens are frequently seen in footage of Soviet tanks in Berlin. However, these screens were not installed on a very large amount of tanks even then, as German infantry tended to be swept out by machine gun fire from the tank and accompanying Soviet infantry at a range of 150-200 meters, greater than the range of the German AT weapons."

http://tankarchives.blogspot.ca/2013/05/research-into-soviet...
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