Doug Cooley
United States
Portland
Oregon
flag msg tools
badge
Me rocking out with my band, which you can hear at www.raindriver.com
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
We had a disagreement about the Range modifier against armored targets in our first game today.

The rules refer to the modifiers on the CRT, to make things more complicated. There is no actual rule in the book, which I find a bit of a cop out. Terrain is covered over more than a page, but there's no paragraph or even example to clarify this one item.

The table says that when firing at an armored target, you essentially ignore the first hex, so firing at a range of 1 has no modifier. At longer range, there is a -2 modifier for the "last hex of range", -1 for other hexes. I took this to mean that if you are counting range from the firing unit to the target, you skip the first hex, then subtract one for each intervening hex past the first one, then subtract two for the target hex regardless of the firing unit's range (assuming the target is in range, of course).

My opponent felt that the "last hex of range" referred to the limits of the firing unit's range, so the -2 modifier would only apply if the target was as far from the firing unit as possible but still in range. For example, a unit with a range of 5 would only get the -2 modifier (as opposed to the regular -1 modifier) for the last hex if the target was five hexes away.

The text could be read either way. We ended up dicing for the result (it actually came down to that at one or two points), and my interpretation "won", but it would be nice to find out what the intent was from someone who knows.

The issue is not addressed in the official errata.

Thanks in advance.

Doug
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jesse Herro
United States
Wilsonville
Oregon
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Hi Doug!

Just to clarify (or confusify), I (the opponent )interpreted the range modifers thusly:

88 (Range 5) firing at an armored unit:

1 hex away: no range modifier
2 hex away: -1 range modifier
3 hex away: -1 range modifier
4 hex away: -1 range modifier
5 hex away: -2 range modifier

If firing at an unarmored unit:

1 hex away: no range modifier
2 hex away: -1 range modifier
3 hex away: -2 range modifier
4 hex away: -3 range modifier
5 hex away: -4 range modifier

Thanks for helping us clear this up.

2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Nick Richardson
United States
Staten Island
New York
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
Col. Forbin wrote:
Hi Doug!

Just to clarify (or confusify), I (the opponent )interpreted the range modifers thusly:

88 (Range 5) firing at an armored unit:

1 hex away: no range modifier
2 hex away: -1 range modifier
3 hex away: -1 range modifier
4 hex away: -1 range modifier
5 hex away: -2 range modifier

If firing at an unarmored unit:

1 hex away: no range modifier
2 hex away: -1 range modifier
3 hex away: -2 range modifier
4 hex away: -3 range modifier
5 hex away: -4 range modifier

Thanks for helping us clear this up.



This is correct.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Nick Richardson
United States
Staten Island
New York
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
dcooley wrote:
We had a disagreement about the Range modifier against armored targets in our first game today.

The rules refer to the modifiers on the CRT, to make things more complicated. There is no actual rule in the book, which I find a bit of a cop out. Terrain is covered over more than a page, but there's no paragraph or even example to clarify this one item.

The table says that when firing at an armored target, you essentially ignore the first hex, so firing at a range of 1 has no modifier. At longer range, there is a -2 modifier for the "last hex of range", -1 for other hexes. I took this to mean that if you are counting range from the firing unit to the target, you skip the first hex, then subtract one for each intervening hex past the first one, then subtract two for the target hex regardless of the firing unit's range (assuming the target is in range, of course).

My opponent felt that the "last hex of range" referred to the limits of the firing unit's range, so the -2 modifier would only apply if the target was as far from the firing unit as possible but still in range. For example, a unit with a range of 5 would only get the -2 modifier (as opposed to the regular -1 modifier) for the last hex if the target was five hexes away.

The text could be read either way. We ended up dicing for the result (it actually came down to that at one or two points), and my interpretation "won", but it would be nice to find out what the intent was from someone who knows.

The issue is not addressed in the official errata.

Thanks in advance.

Doug


Doug, just to be clear, for the range versus armored modifier, if the target is 1 hex away, the mod is 0. If the target is at the limit of the firing unit's range, it's -2. All other ranges have a -1 modifier.

Against unarmored target, it becomes -(range-1), so -1 for 2 hexes away, -2 for 3 hexes away, and so forth.

The reason why the range modifiers are just referred to as "see the table" is that this appears in the series rulebook, and the value will change for the different games in the system (No Question of Surrender, the game I'm designing uses different range modifiers due to the scale) but use the same series rulebook (with different tables).

Hopefully it's clear now, and that you and Jesse are enjoying the game.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jesse Herro
United States
Wilsonville
Oregon
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Thanks again Nick.

I love this game.

The system, the maps, the counters, and especially all of the one map scenarios. All in all I'm a big fan. I also really appreciate your support here and on CSW.

The game today was pretty rough for the Brits. Group Hot got ripped up by the 88 and a gnarly traffic jam ensued. Two armored units of Group Cold got set up to assault the objective, but one of them lost a step on a third cohesion hit. This was the 5th armor step loss giving the Germans the victory.


We are going to try Little Omaha soon.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Doug Cooley
United States
Portland
Oregon
flag msg tools
badge
Me rocking out with my band, which you can hear at www.raindriver.com
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Quote:
The reason why the range modifiers are just referred to as "see the table" is that this appears in the series rulebook, and the value will change for the different games in the system (No Question of Surrender, the game I'm designing uses different range modifiers due to the scale) but use the same series rulebook (with different tables).


Excellent, thanks for the clarification. I'm all about playing the game correctly, and in this case there was no effect on our game's outcome (which is never really the point anyway).

For the record, I had about a zero percent chance of reading that modifier text correctly - Jesse had to use very small words to explain it to me. The use of the word "range" in two different contexts (both as a numeric value on a counter and as a modifier) is confusing, for one. Two, the proximity of a hex by hex rule for unarmored units is suggestive. Three, the language is vague, almost certainly because of space issues. It probably warranted a mention in the game-specific rules if nowhere else, but that' horse left the stable. I'm sure there are good design reasons for the rule, I'm not quibbling about that.

On the other hand, after looking both on the TDC website forums as well as BGG, I found no one with any confusion about how the rule worked, so apparently either I am the only one who got it wrong, or else there are a lot of people playing it out there with my interpretation who are simply getting it wrong as I would have. If you've worked on quality systems before, you know that the worst error is the one that exists and no one knows is there. Probably worth a clarification note in the FAQ just to be sure, certainly more precise language in future games in the series.

While I'm not a fan of "conversational" rules (my take is that when you are trying to precisely define concepts and words, you must use precise and formal language, such as in a game of any stripe), I do think that the rules are very complete and seem to cover pretty much every other situation, other than what seems to be a few mistakes in examples.

Thanks for the support, I'm looking forward to future titles in the series.

Doug
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jesse Herro
United States
Wilsonville
Oregon
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
dcooley wrote:


For the record, I had about a zero percent chance of reading that modifier text correctly - Jesse had to use very small words to explain it to me.


I am perfecting my human to Doug translator currently.

dcooley wrote:


On the other hand, after looking both on the TDC website forums as well as BGG, I found no one with any confusion about how the rule worked, so apparently either I am the only one who got it wrong, or else there are a lot of people playing it out there with my interpretation who are simply getting it wrong as I would have.


Pretty sure it's just you.

Really though, I totally understand where you are coming from, sometimes a rule just reads differently to you. Im still convinced, for example, that Martin Wallace has one of the rules to Brass totally wrong. ninja

Start reading up on those assault ferry rules! If we could handle the raised roads & piggyback infantry, nothing can stop us!

I noticed too that we forgot to reduce out of command units TQ by 1...
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andrej Kveder
United Kingdom
Oxford
Oxfordshire
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
dcooley wrote:
Quote:
The reason why the range modifiers are just referred to as "see the table" is that this appears in the series rulebook, and the value will change for the different games in the system (No Question of Surrender, the game I'm designing uses different range modifiers due to the scale) but use the same series rulebook (with different tables).


On the other hand, after looking both on the TDC website forums as well as BGG, I found no one with any confusion about how the rule worked, so apparently either I am the only one who got it wrong, or else there are a lot of people playing it out there with my interpretation who are simply getting it wrong as I would have. If you've worked on quality systems before, you know that the worst error is the one that exists and no one knows is there. Probably worth a clarification note in the FAQ just to be sure, certainly more precise language in future games in the series.


Well I can safely say you are not the only one to get stuck on that issue. We played it yesterday night for the first time and got stuck on exactly the same issue. After a bit of discussion we agreed on the correct interpretation of the rules. One major issue was also the comparison with the reality. An armoured unit is one big target and not easily missed. So it can't have the same effect as if shooting at the scattered infantry unit. So only at the very end of your range you get an additional penalty for hitting it.

We came to another issue about piggy-backing but this is a discussion for a different thread.

Excellent game all in all. Congrats.

A
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Runs with scissors
United States
Vancouver
Washington
flag msg tools
The die is cast.
badge
You say OCD like it's a bad thing.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Yeah, we spent about half an hour arguing over this one today. Everyone else argued for the maximum modification being -2, and I thought that the modifiers were cumulative per hex.

There really should be an example or more discussion in the game specific rules, since it is significantly different than firing at an unarmored target. I feel that the description on the table is cryptic and poorly worded if it needs to stand by itself with no supplemental explanation.

Yeah, it makes the 88's game changers since we saw them get up to '8' or so on the to hit tables.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andrew Migliore
United States
Portland
Oregon
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
autumnweave wrote:
Yeah, we spent about half an hour arguing over this one today. Everyone else argued for the maximum modification being -2, and I thought that the modifiers were cumulative per hex.


Amusing conversation though. I think we came up with 4 legitimate ways of interpreting the text. What is madding is the inconsistent use of language and punctuation! And yes those 88s are way more powerful given our apparent correct interpretation of the rule, thus just inside of Eindhoven I took Group Hot for a little detour to avoid that beast of of a gun!
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
James McLeod
msg tools
dcooley wrote:
We had a disagreement about the Range modifier against armored targets in our first game today.
...

The table says that when firing at an armored target, you essentially ignore the first hex, so firing at a range of 1 has no modifier. At longer range, there is a -2 modifier for the "last hex of range", -1 for other hexes. I took this to mean that if you are counting range from the firing unit to the target, you skip the first hex, then subtract one for each intervening hex past the first one, then subtract two for the target hex regardless of the firing unit's range (assuming the target is in range, of course).
...


Doug


I know this is an old thread, but this is very interesting. I never found any difficulty in reading it correctly (as described in your opponent's reply). Do I interpret that a 5 hex range unit (say the 88) would in your book have had mods as follows?
Range to target 1, mod = 0
range to target 2, mod = -2
" " " 3, mod = -1 -2 for -3 total
" " " 4 , mod = -1 -1 -2 for -4 total etc?

That would not have occurred to me and would certainly reduce the effectiveness!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.