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The Pillars of the Earth: Expansion Set» Forums » Rules

Subject: "Madonna" event and Saint-Denis rss

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André Bleau
Canada
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One event card says:

"The archbishop donates a statue of the Madonna to the cathedral! For each player, the capacity of their own craftsmen increases by 1 (does not apply to organ maker and bell caster)"

How does that affect the "Inspiration at Saint-Denis" card? Does a craftmen with an original capacity of 1 (for example, the gardener) gets first an increase of capacity to 2, so when the Saint-Denis cards is used, allowing the re-use of a craftman with a capacity decreased by 1, the gardener may be used again with a capacity of one?
 
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brian
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Cedar Lake
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First off, the "The archbishop giving a Madonna statue" might be mistyped above. It only gives the +1 capacity to ONE craftsman of each player. The Inspiration gives you -1 capacity on a 2nd use.

If both of these cards were played on the same craftsman, I would say they cancel each other out. The craftsman could be used a 2nd time at full capacity.
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André Bleau
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Well, it is not a typo. It is from http://files.boardgamegeek.com/geekfile_view.php?fileid=3215... in the files section of "The Pillars of the Earth" page of boardgamegeek.com.

Maybe it was translated from German, but in any case it matches the French version that I have: "L'archevêque offre une statue de la Vierge à la cathédrale. Pour chaque joueur, la capacité de chacun de ses artisans augmente de 1 (excepté pour le fondeur de cloches et le facteur d'orgues)."

That makes it a very powerful card (especially on the last turn!), so how it combines with Saint-Denis is important. So can the owner of the Saint-Denis card use any craftman with some capacity in the case of that event (except for the bell maker and the organ builder, which are explicitely excluded)? Even a craftman with a capacity of 1 belonging to some other player?
 
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brian
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The English card clearly states only 1 Craftsman can increase his capacity by 1. Each player's choice.

Regardless, the Saint Denis and the Bishop card cancel their modifiers. So the possesor of the St. Denis can use any craftsman on the board. If it happens to be the same one that was picked to produce the +1 (if using the English cards) or any craftsman (if using another language card) then that craftsman would produce his normal capacity if given enough resources.
 
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Robin Goodall
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I'd say that you apply the Madonna card to your chosen craftsmen (english rules) and then can use the Saint Denis card to make a copy of this at -1 (i.e. the card's original capacity).

e.g. If used on a card with a capacity of 1x, this card would have a capacity of 2x and the Saint Denis copy would have a capacity of 1x, thus giving you an effective capacity total of 3x.

Also, this allows you to use the Saint Denis card on a Craftsman with 1x capacity as they actually have 2x at the point at which the card is used.

Interesting, you would need to be careful when choosing the target of the effect of the Madonna card, when someone else has the Saint Denis as you may be giving them an opportunity that they wouldn't normally have.
 
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John Weber
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This question came up in our game today (the first full game played with the expansion), and it would be nice to get an "official" response as the rules are silent as to how the new St. Denis card interacts with this specific event. My sense is this is the kind of thing that probably should not be allowed, particularly if the St. Denis player wanted to use another player's craftsman, as it would appear to depend alot on turn order, i.e., if the St. Denis player was going ahead of the player with the Craftsman he wanted the bonus from, there was no way he could get the extra "x" bonus. If the St. Denis player was going after the player with the desired craftsman, it might be tricky for players to have to recall which craftsman did what. Thus, some players in our game thought it might only be doable with your own craftsman, or perhaps not doable at all.

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Grzegorz Kobiela
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My take: The St. Denis card does not copy a craftsman with a bonus, it just copies the craftsman himself. The craftsman, however, has a fixed capacity. He might get a bonus once, but his original capacity is what is written on the card.

See it this way: The St. Denis card is another temporal craftsman of yours that got inspired by any other craftsman. It doesn't matter if the craftsman you got inspired from was extremely busy this day (thus having an increased capacity due to a bonus), your inspired craftsman (the St. Denis card) is not physically the same person, so he just copies the action of the other craftsman, but not his enthusiasm or increased work power. He even works less efficient (thus the decrease of capacity) than the original craftsman.

I hope, I could make it clear enough.
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André Bleau
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Thanks Ponton for your reply; your view makes a lot of sense, if the "Madonna" event only increases the capacity of one of your craftmen. However, the French rule (from game editor Filosophia), extends that to all craftmen. Since you are German, could you tell us what the original German "Madonna" card say?

If all my craftmen get a +1 increase, I don't see how it could not apply to the one that was inspired by the work of another craftman.
 
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Rick Bynaker
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Ponton wrote:
My take: The St. Denis card does not copy a craftsman with a bonus, it just copies the craftsman himself. The craftsman, however, has a fixed capacity. He might get a bonus once, but his original capacity is what is written on the card.

See it this way: The St. Denis card is another temporal craftsman of yours that got inspired by any other craftsman. It doesn't matter if the craftsman you got inspired from was extremely busy this day (thus having an increased capacity due to a bonus), your inspired craftsman (the St. Denis card) is not physically the same person, so he just copies the action of the other craftsman, but not his enthusiasm or increased work power. He even works less efficient (thus the decrease of capacity) than the original craftsman.

I hope, I could make it clear enough.


I agree with this interpretation and like your rationalization of it. This is how John Weber and I played it this past weekend. If you interpret otherwise then it just leads to too many follow-up questions. I would still like to know what the designer's intent was for this card/ability combination as I think it is likely to come up again in most games.

Rick
 
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Grzegorz Kobiela
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AndreBleau wrote:
Since you are German, could you tell us what the original German "Madonna" card say?


The German card says:

Quote:
Der Erzbischof stiftet der Kathedrale eine Madonnenstatue!

Für jeden Spieler erhöht sich die Kapazität eines eigenen Handwerkers um 1 (gilt nicht für Orgelbauer und Glockengießer).


So, it's just one craftsman that gets an increased capacity. I guess in the French version it's just a translation error that causes the card to give increased capacity to all of your craftsmen. The German word "ein" and its forms "eine", "einen", etc. have two meanings, one numerical "one", and the other is the unspecified article "a". I guess this caused the confusion to that person who translated the rules. If he interpreted "eines" as "of a", he might think this to be a generalization and translated it to "of all" instead of to "of one".
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Robin Goodall
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rbynaker wrote:
Ponton wrote:
My take: ...

I agree with this interpretation and like your rationalization of it. This is how John Weber and I played it this past weekend. If you interpret otherwise then it just leads to too many follow-up questions. I would still like to know what the designer's intent was for this card/ability combination as I think it is likely to come up again in most games.

Yep, I change my mind. Ponton's interpretation is simple, clear and makes more sense.
 
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Alex Yeager
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I think I can clear this up: from the "Inspiration..." text in the Mayfair edition rules, page 2:
"However, this craftsman can ONLY be used with 1 less capacity than SHOWN on the original craftsman. A craftsman without a capacity arrow, or one with a capacity of 1 CANNOT be used." (emphasis mine).

For craftsmen with a capacity of 2+, I'd suggest that the wording above be taken literally: "can only be used" states that no other effects may be applied to it. For single-use craftsmen, the Madonna event does not supercede the original rules text for the St. Denis card. You cannot use St. Denis on any of these craftsmen.

I hope that helps!
Alex Yeager
Mayfair Games

(Edit: spelling)
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